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Post by Mech on Jan 12, 2008 0:35:30 GMT -5
Snow in Baghdad iraq....first snow in recent memory
By CHRISTOPHER CHESTER, Associated Press Writer Fri Jan 11, 3:23 PM ET
BAGHDAD - The flakes melted quickly. But the smiles, wonder and excited story-swapping went on throughout the day: It snowed in Baghdad. ADVERTISEMENT
The morning flurry Friday was the first in memory in the heart of the Iraqi capital. Perhaps more significant, however, was the rare ripple of delight through a city snarled by army checkpoints, divided by concrete walls and ravaged by sectarian killings.
"For the first time in my life I saw a snow-rain like this falling in Baghdad," said Mohammed Abdul-Hussein, a 63-year-old retiree from the New Baghdad area.
"When I was young, I heard from my father that such rain had fallen in the early '40s on the outskirts of northern Baghdad," Abdul-Hussein said, referring to snow as a type of rain. "But snow falling in Baghdad in such a magnificent scene was beyond my imagination."
After weathering nearly five years of war, Baghdad residents thought they'd pretty much seen it all. But as muezzins were calling the faithful to prayer, the people here awoke to something certifiably new.
Snow is common in the mountainous Kurdish areas of northern Iraq, but residents of the capital and surrounding areas could remember just hail. And that, only very occasionally.
Summer temperatures in Baghdad are routinely a sweltering 120 degrees and winters generally mild.
But this week has been unusually cold and blustery, with overnight temperatures more than 10 degrees below normal. On Thursday morning, the thermometer hovered around freezing after a low of 27, and the Baghdad airport closed because of low visibility.
"I asked my mother, who is 80, whether she'd ever seen snow in Iraq before, and her answer was no," said Fawzi Karim, a 40-year-old father of five who runs a small restaurant in Hawr Rajab, a village six miles southeast of Baghdad.
"This is so unusual, and I don't know whether or not it's a lesson from God," Karim said.
Some said they'd seen snow only in movies.
Talib Haider, a 19-year-old college student, said "a friend of mine called me at 8 a.m. to wake me up and tell me that the sky is raining snow."
"I rushed quickly to the balcony to see a very beautiful scene," he said. "I tried to film it with my cell phone camera. This scene has really brought me joy. I called my other friends and the morning turned out to be a very happy one in my life."
An Iraqi who works for The Associated Press said he woke his wife and children shortly after 7 a.m. to "have a look at this strange thing." He then called his brother and sister and found them awake, also watching the "cotton-like snow drops covering the trees."
For a couple of hours anyway, a city where mortar shells routinely zoom across the Tigris River to the Green Zone became united as one big White Zone. There were no reports of bloodshed during the snowstorm. The snow showed no favoritism as it dusted neighborhoods Shiite and Sunni alike, faintly falling (with apologies to James Joyce) upon all the living and the dead.
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Post by Swamp Gas on Jan 12, 2008 13:10:59 GMT -5
I have always thought that the weird weather patterns were a combination of all the anomalies we are witnessing. Snow in Phoenix, Baghdad, and Los Angeles. a week straight in New Jersey in January with 70 degrees. A combination of magnetic field fluctuations, increased sun activity, global warming, and other factors are giving extremes, and are leading to an Ice Age. Here's an interesting article by Thom Hartman. It goes against the grain of both the Global Warming advocates and skeptics. I really like this guy. He is a 9/11 truther, likes Ron Paul and Kucinich, and is very knowledgeable on many subjects. Watch out Thom....remember Mike Malloy... www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/4/3441 How Global Warming May Cause the Next Ice Age... By Thom Hartmann Commondreams.org Friday 30 January 2004 While global warming is being officially ignored by the political arm of the Bush administration, and Al Gore's recent conference on the topic during one of the coldest days of recent years provided joke fodder for conservative talk show hosts, the citizens of Europe and the Pentagon are taking a new look at the greatest danger such climate change could produce for the northern hemisphere - a sudden shift into a new ice age. What they're finding is not at all comforting. In quick summary, if enough cold, fresh water coming from the melting polar ice caps and the melting glaciers of Greenland flows into the northern Atlantic, it will shut down the Gulf Stream, which keeps Europe and northeastern North America warm. The worst-case scenario would be a full-blown return of the last ice age - in a period as short as 2 to 3 years from its onset - and the mid-case scenario would be a period like the "little ice age" of a few centuries ago that disrupted worldwide weather patterns leading to extremely harsh winters, droughts, worldwide desertification, crop failures, and wars around the world. Here's how it works. If you look at a globe, you'll see that the latitude of much of Europe and Scandinavia is the same as that of Alaska and permafrost-locked parts of northern Canada and central Siberia. Yet Europe has a climate more similar to that of the United States than northern Canada or Siberia. Why? It turns out that our warmth is the result of ocean currents that bring warm surface water up from the equator into northern regions that would otherwise be so cold that even in summer they'd be covered with ice. The current of greatest concern is often referred to as "The Great Conveyor Belt," which includes what we call the Gulf Stream. The Great Conveyor Belt, while shaped by the Coriolis effect of the Earth's rotation, is mostly driven by the greater force created by differences in water temperatures and salinity. The North Atlantic Ocean is saltier and colder than the Pacific, the result of it being so much smaller and locked into place by the Northern and Southern American Hemispheres on the west and Europe and Africa on the east. As a result, the warm water of the Great Conveyor Belt evaporates out of the North Atlantic leaving behind saltier waters, and the cold continental winds off the northern parts of North America cool the waters. Salty, cool waters settle to the bottom of the sea, most at a point a few hundred kilometers south of the southern tip of Greenland, producing a whirlpool of falling water that's 5 to 10 miles across. While the whirlpool rarely breaks the surface, during certain times of year it does produce an indentation and current in the ocean that can tilt ships and be seen from space (and may be what we see on the maps of ancient mariners). This falling column of cold, salt-laden water pours itself to the bottom of the Atlantic, where it forms an undersea river forty times larger than all the rivers on land combined, flowing south down to and around the southern tip of Africa, where it finally reaches the Pacific. Amazingly, the water is so deep and so dense (because of its cold and salinity) that it often doesn't surface in the Pacific for as much as a thousand years after it first sank in the North Atlantic off the coast of Greenland. The out-flowing undersea river of cold, salty water makes the level of the Atlantic slightly lower than that of the Pacific, drawing in a strong surface current of warm, fresher water from the Pacific to replace the outflow of the undersea river. This warmer, fresher water slides up through the South Atlantic, loops around North America where it's known as the Gulf Stream, and ends up off the coast of Europe. By the time it arrives near Greenland, it's cooled off and evaporated enough water to become cold and salty and sink to the ocean floor, providing a continuous feed for that deep-sea river flowing to the Pacific. These two flows - warm, fresher water in from the Pacific, which then grows salty and cools and sinks to form an exiting deep sea river - are known as the Great Conveyor Belt. Amazingly, the Great Conveyor Belt is only thing between comfortable summers and a permanent ice age for Europe and the eastern coast of North America. Much of this science was unknown as recently as twenty years ago. Then an international group of scientists went to Greenland and used newly developed drilling and sensing equipment to drill into some of the world's most ancient accessible glaciers. Their instruments were so sensitive that when they analyzed the ice core samples they brought up, they were able to look at individual years of snow. The results were shocking. Prior to the last decades, it was thought that the periods between glaciations and warmer times in North America, Europe, and North Asia were gradual. We knew from the fossil record that the Great Ice Age period began a few million years ago, and during those years there were times where for hundreds or thousands of years North America, Europe, and Siberia were covered with thick sheets of ice year-round. In between these icy times, there were periods when the glaciers thawed, bare land was exposed, forests grew, and land animals (including early humans) moved into these northern regions. Most scientists figured the transition time from icy to warm was gradual, lasting dozens to hundreds of years, and nobody was sure exactly what had caused it. (Variations in solar radiation were suspected, as were volcanic activity, along with early theories about the Great Conveyor Belt, which, until recently, was a poorly understood phenomenon.) Looking at the ice cores, however, scientists were shocked to discover that the transitions from ice age-like weather to contemporary-type weather usually took only two or three years. Something was flipping the weather of the planet back and forth with a rapidity that was startling. It turns out that the ice age versus temperate weather patterns weren't part of a smooth and linear process, like a dimmer slider for an overhead light bulb. They are part of a delicately balanced teeter-totter, which can exist in one state or the other, but transits through the middle stage almost overnight. They more resemble a light switch, which is off as you gradually and slowly lift it, until it hits a mid-point threshold or "breakover point" where suddenly the state is flipped from off to on and the light comes on. It appears that small (less that .1 percent) variations in solar energy happen in roughly 1500-year cycles. This cycle, for example, is what brought us the "Little Ice Age" that started around the year 1400 and dramatically cooled North America and Europe (we're now in the warming phase, recovering from that). When the ice in the Arctic Ocean is frozen solid and locked up, and the glaciers on Greenland are relatively stable, this variation warms and cools the Earth in a very small way, but doesn't affect the operation of the Great Conveyor Belt that brings moderating warm water into the North Atlantic. In millennia past, however, before the Arctic totally froze and locked up, and before some critical threshold amount of fresh water was locked up in the Greenland and other glaciers, these 1500-year variations in solar energy didn't just slightly warm up or cool down the weather for the landmasses bracketing the North Atlantic. They flipped on and off periods of total glaciation and periods of temperate weather. And these changes came suddenly. For early humans living in Europe 30,000 years ago - when the cave paintings in France were produced - the weather would be pretty much like it is today for well over a thousand years, giving people a chance to build culture to the point where they could produce art and reach across large territories. And then a particularly hard winter would hit. The spring would come late, and summer would never seem to really arrive, with the winter snows appearing as early as September. The next winter would be brutally cold, and the next spring didn't happen at all, with above-freezing temperatures only being reached for a few days during August and the snow never completely melting. After that, the summer never returned: for 1500 years the snow simply accumulated and accumulated, deeper and deeper, as the continent came to be covered with glaciers and humans either fled or died out. (Neanderthals, who dominated Europe until the end of these cycles, appear to have been better adapted to cold weather than Homo sapiens.) What brought on this sudden "disappearance of summer" period was that the warm-water currents of the Great Conveyor Belt had shut down. Once the Gulf Stream was no longer flowing, it only took a year or three for the last of the residual heat held in the North Atlantic Ocean to dissipate into the air over Europe, and then there was no more warmth to moderate the northern latitudes. When the summer stopped in the north, the rains stopped around the equator: At the same time Europe was plunged into an Ice Age, the Middle East and Africa were ravaged by drought and wind-driven firestorms. . If the Great Conveyor Belt, which includes the Gulf Stream, were to stop flowing today, the result would be sudden and dramatic. Winter would set in for the eastern half of North America and all of Europe and Siberia, and never go away. Within three years, those regions would become uninhabitable and nearly two billion humans would starve, freeze to death, or have to relocate. Civilization as we know it probably couldn't withstand the impact of such a crushing blow. And, incredibly, the Great Conveyor Belt has hesitated a few times in the past decade. As William H. Calvin points out in one of the best books available on this topic ("A Brain For All Seasons: human evolution & abrupt climate change"): ".the abrupt cooling in the last warm period shows that a flip can occur in situations much like the present one. What could possibly halt the salt-conveyor belt that brings tropical heat so much farther north and limits the formation of ice sheets? Oceanographers are busy studying present-day failures of annual flushing, which give some perspective on the catastrophic failures of the past. "In the Labrador Sea, flushing failed during the 1970s, was strong again by 1990, and is now declining. In the Greenland Sea over the 1980s salt sinking declined by 80 percent. Obviously, local failures can occur without catastrophe - it's a question of how often and how widespread the failures are - but the present state of decline is not very reassuring." Most scientists involved in research on this topic agree that the culprit is global warming, melting the icebergs on Greenland and the Arctic icepack and thus flushing cold, fresh water down into the Greenland Sea from the north. When a critical threshold is reached, the climate will suddenly switch to an ice age that could last minimally 700 or so years, and maximally over 100,000 years. And when might that threshold be reached? Nobody knows - the action of the Great Conveyor Belt in defining ice ages was discovered only in the last decade. Preliminary computer models and scientists willing to speculate suggest the switch could flip as early as next year, or it may be generations from now. It may be wobbling right now, producing the extremes of weather we've seen in the past few years. What's almost certain is that if nothing is done about global warming, it will happen sooner rather than later
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Post by Mech on Jan 12, 2008 13:46:09 GMT -5
As you are well aware of...Global warming is a VERY touchie subject with me so i will not get into a debate about it...because i know most people here will want to get into a shouting match with me over it...like it happened the last time.
I will simply say this. My belief in global warming is based on my own research versus the Al-gore type theories that are out there.
I believe that the man made contribution is minimal at best...where as the real warming is being caused on the cosmic level...and happening on other worlds in our own solar system. Man made carbon dioxide is nothing compared to methane. The earth will have another ice age wether we do anything or not...the earth will correct itself if need be...we DO NOT control what the planet does....if it chose to..it could wipe most of us out if it chose to...cosmic factors most certainly do play a role.
Not just warming...but all the other phenomena...like geotechtonic and volcanic movements, superstorms...everything.
Seems to me that many of these scientists want to play the blame game and want to blame everything on humans. Many of these same scientists want ot reduce the population of the planet by getting rid of "useless eaters".
I am 100% opposed to more beauracracies and regulatory agencies that wish to control every aspect of our lives and put people in the poor house in the name of "saving the planet" (which it wont). I don't like car exaust...i don't like pollution...but the USA is MUCH cleaner air wise than it was in the 19th or early parts of the 20th century. Still a long way to go obviously....but bankrupting people and putting a carbon leash around their necks isnt the answer.
Again...my opinion.
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Post by Swamp Gas on Jan 12, 2008 13:58:53 GMT -5
On the subject of man-made vs cosmic (probably both, although I think man-made is the main culprit), but that Global Warming is leading to an Ice Age. This theory goes back over 35 years, when I first read about it. To me it makes the most sense. Gore's theories are more geared toward "burning earth", but stop short of the Ice Age theory.
We can have a logical discussion and not shout, as there is science on both sides of the issue. The extreme theories are being perped by Al Gore and Exxon/Mobil, who both have a lot to gain by their views in terms of power and money.
I think that all of what you say contribute to extreme weather fluctuation, but I do think that carbon dioxide levels and hydrocarbons/pollutants are two separate, yet connected issues.
In my opinion, we should do everything we can to save the species, even if it means migrating to outer space.
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Post by Mech on Jan 12, 2008 17:22:00 GMT -5
Everything we can?
Hmmmm....well...I think the ELITE will decide that for us.
Just ONE example.
**
California wants to control home thermostats
Felicity Barringer
Saturday January 12, 2008
The conceit in the 1960s show "The Outer Limits" was that outside forces had taken control of your television set.
Next year in California, state regulators are likely to have the emergency power to control individual thermostats, sending temperatures up or down through a radio-controlled device that will be required in new or substantially modified houses and buildings to manage electricity shortages.
The proposed rules are contained in a document circulated by the California Energy Commission, which for more than three decades has set state energy efficiency standards for home appliances, like water heaters, air conditioners and refrigerators.
The changes would allow utilities to adjust customers' preset temperatures when the price of electricity is soaring. Customers could override the utilities' suggested temperatures. But in emergencies, the utilities could override customers' wishes.
Final approval is expected next month.
"You realize there are times - very rarely, once every few years - when you would be subject to a rotating outage and everything would crash including your computer and traffic lights, and you don't want to do that," said Arthur Rosenfeld, a member of the energy commission.
Reducing individual customers' electrical use - if necessary, involuntarily - could avoid that, Rosenfeld said. "If you can control rotating outages by letting everyone in the state share the pain," he said, "there's a lot less pain to go around."
While the proposals have received little attention in California, the Internet and talk radio are abuzz with indignation at the idea.
The radio-controlled thermostat is not a new technology, though it is constantly being tweaked; the latest iterations were on display this week at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas. Pacific Gas and Electric, the major utility in Northern California, already has a pilot program in Stockton that allows customers to choose to have their air-conditioning systems attached to a radio-controlled device to reduce use during periods when electricity rates are at their peak. But the idea that a government would mandate use of these devices and reserve the power to override a building owner's wishes galls some people.
"This is an outrage," one Californian said in an e-mail message to Rosenfeld. "We need to build new facilities to handle the growth in this state, not become Big Brother to the citizens of California."
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Post by KNOWTHIS on Jan 12, 2008 18:55:42 GMT -5
In my opinion the best way to reduce or control the population is to attack the very ecosystem that sustains them. Global warming, a natural or man-made problem or both, is a problem that needs to be addressed. A town in Tennessee had recently run out of water. Water obviously happens to be one of those natural resources critical to human survival. Man cannot invent more water. How could anyone rationalize contaminating such a resource, especially as it becomes scarce in some areas? What better way to control people then to pollute a resource that they absolutely need like water? Who do you think is going to control all of the clean water in the end? It must first become scarce though (by means of contamination and other methods like in China) before they can use it against us. In Australia farmers are literally committing suicide over drought and dismal crop production. When I call myself an environmentalist (a term often misrepresented), this is what I’m talking about. Have some environmentalist organizations been subverted by corporate polluters for purposes opposite of their stated intent, sure. But you could say the same about Christians or any other group that feels demonized by the new world order. Many times they are referred to as “fake Christians”. This is why I’m so hesitant to rely upon labels, right/left/environmentalist/Christian etc. It becomes too easy to inappropriately generalize entire groups. We all do it. It’s designed to keep us divided. www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,307437,00.html Tennessee Town Runs Out of Water in Southeast DroughtThe same big businesses that love to pollute our resources will eventually use their political might to control and privatize them when they run out. You watch. Then we’ll wish that we had done a better job of protecting that which we have been taking for granted for so many years. Environmentalists like so many other groups have been labeled by the government as “terrorists” for a reason. www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/dec/09/water.climatechangeWater becomes the new oil as world runs dry
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Post by Mech on Jan 12, 2008 20:34:59 GMT -5
I for one...do not want government control over every aspect of my life.
....including my Thermostat...or weather or not I can have a pellet stove (which uses clean, non polluting waste wood to heat) in my home. Or taxing the shit out of transporatation fuel.
I am sick and tired of those who think its ok for governments to literally tax hardworking people to death or to regulate them into oblivion.
I wont have it. I am more than willing to get angry and hostile about it and take to the streets.
.....and I know others like me feel the same way.
......and i know its going to happen.
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Post by Swamp Gas on Jan 12, 2008 21:15:22 GMT -5
This is why I’m so hesitant to rely upon labels, right/left/environmentalist/Christian etc. It becomes too easy to inappropriately generalize entire groups. We all do it. It’s designed to keep us divided. I agree K-T. I too love the environment, animals, peaceful people, science, technology, and the arts. When any of these things are used against the people or to divide people, then it is not helping anymore. Now on Global Warming, I don't think we have anything to lose on improving the transportation means, especially with hydrogen cells and Lithium Ion. Zero to sixty in 4 seconds matches a 1965 427 Cobra, one of the most powerful production cars ever built. Carbon taxing people is not a good idea Mech, I read this too, and immediately I thought of the NWO controlling. You see, there is NWO both on the left and right. Opposing the the NWO on the right is Alex Jones and Mike Rivero while the left has Thom Hartmann and Mike Malloy opposing. However, calling them "left and right" has no meaning except on specific issues. What they all agree upon is we are in immediate danger from the NWO, Globalists, Illuminati, Corporatists, Military-Industrial Complex, whatever. I also agree with Mech that I don't want the government controlling our lives, but I also do not want the government privatized and then corporations running our lives. Both should be run by the people and for the people. Fascism, is the state and corporations running hand in hand.
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Post by KNOWTHIS on Jan 13, 2008 0:04:26 GMT -5
My general comments.... Large multi-national corporations and government have become virtually indistinguishable from one another. It helps no one to exchange one form of tyranny for another. You could call it fascism or you could call it corporatism. It always goes back to following the money trail (who benefits?) because we all know that large concentrations of paperbacks equal power. Those who possess all of the wealth in this country (which is being redistributed to the top percentile) are those who guide policy through lobbyists and other means. The largest campaign donations come from these areas as they literally buy influence. We have a former lobbyist running for president in Fred Thompson. It’s ridiculous! These people aren’t interested in representing the best interests of the average American. One look at the economy right now should tell you that. Wars for oil benefits profit-driven companies like Exxon and major defense contractors. Sick Americans benefit the pharmaceutical companies. Fears of terrorists benefit those that produce surveillance and other highly intrusive technology (and "Mr. 9/11"). The plans for a North American Union, open borders and free trade are all being driven by large corporations. They’re just exploiting our bought off politicians as the medium to achieve their selfish goals. They have essentially become the government. The unregulated and monopolized “free-market” system is being abused to imprison us in a sadistic, fear/war-based economy. Eventually water shortages will be exploited in the same manner. That goes without even mentioning the even larger problem of the influence of foreign wealth (shady international bankers, Israel). That's a whole different can of worms altogether. People for some reason seem to feel more comfortable when certain services become privatized. But what difference does it make when it still equates to government control anyway? Take the Blackwater mercenaries for example. They’re no different than the Nazi SS was in Germany. If one is concerned about preserving guns, who was it that was confiscating them in New Orleans? The private company known as Blackwater! They believe that they can operate with immunity under their own set of rules. firedoglake.com/2007/10/05/blackwater-newly-created-thug-caste/Blackwater: “Newly Created Thug Caste”Look at what has happened to our voting system after it was privatized by vote-rigging companies like Diebold. They have simply declared patent protections on their product which disallows us from properly investigating their corrupt software/programming. Who has received large contracts for building our future detainment facilities? The private company known as Halliburton! The “mainstream” media is just another profit-driven corporate conglomerate that shills for the government. Vaccine companies use their financial influence to protect themselves from lawsuits when their product harms innocent people. I understand that people want smaller government but handing it over to the maniacal, cutthroat ownership class which has no respect for the environment or human beings for that matter isn’t going to help. They’re running the show now in fact. The worst of it started under Reagan who invented the “trickle down” theory. Does it look any better so far? Read about Tom Delay and the sweatshops that he visited in Saipan. He said himself that what they had going on there represented exactly what he wanted for America. They want domestic slave labor which benefits who else but big business? It will save them the cost and inconvenience of having to offshore. It’s no coincidence that the US is now being degraded to a third world status. The middle class is being eroded downward while the powerful select few millionaires acquire billions. Who do you think is in charge? It's not Bush, it's not Congress or the Supreme Court. It's those who are lining their pockets. Money makes the world go around. Money leads to greed. Greed is the root of all evil. That's why the illuminati's all-seeing eye is pasted right on to the dollar itself. When water shortages are upon us, it’s the poor and middle class who will suffer. The affluent will consolidate the resources for themselves. Then who is going to really have the power? Not us….
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Post by Mech on Jan 13, 2008 0:14:43 GMT -5
There is absolutely no water shortage where i live in Mass...in fact...last spring there were floods everywhere in the state.
I lived in Jacksonville Florida (the deep south) for 2 years....and the locals told me there that due to the terrain and the climate it was natural to have cycles of both droughts and wildfires there. In fact...certain species of pine need fire in order to germinate their seeds.
The government already has water meters here on everyones homes exept those (like myself) who use deep well water. Does this mean we will have to pay even MORE because of some newly created government beauracracy out to "save the planet"? Even though some places are absolutely swimming in water?
My ass.
Does a drought cycle mean that it is perfectly ok to start "blaming big, bad man"....as the cause of it?
WHO decides?
Al Gore?
Government?
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Post by KNOWTHIS on Jan 13, 2008 1:38:05 GMT -5
There is absolutely no water shortage where i live in Mass...in fact...last spring there were floods everywhere in the state. So if the problem doesn’t personally effect you it doesn’t matter? The world is a big place. Luckily for you our environmental standards (for now) here in the US are much better than in China which doesn't say much. As corporations continue to take control though those standards have been quickly reversing. www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Business/2007/07/14/bp_to_dump_more_toxins_in_lake_michigan/4778/#postBP to dump more toxins in Lake MichiganSo what were the corporate geniuses doing? That’s right, dumping harmful toxins, which is exactly what has created the current crisis in China. If that’s not man’s fault then whose is it exactly? These are 'artificial' contaminants, not natural. It’s so strange that some will rightfully complain about fluoride in the water but not about other corrosive materials that are even much worse. I guess fluoride in the drinking water is natural too? Man would never do such a thing to himself, he's too perfect. Not! Is it that hard to see that industrial sludge is a major threat to one's health? Please tell me who I'm supposed to blame for the fluoride, the sludge, the ammonia, the chemical weapons, the plastics and everything else that has been dumped in to our once pristine rivers, lakes and oceans? You're basically making it seem like I'm an asshole for blaming people. Well who did it then? Youn posted about fluoride here. How is what I'm saying any different? I'm simply complaining about other chemicals which don't belong in our water as well. But when I do it I'm being mean to "man". Meanwhile the Great Lakes have reached near-record lows and states were recently battling over how to divert this water supply to other areas of the country that desperately needed it. Drought is expected to increasingly become a problem in the coming years, especially in the south. www.sun-sentinel.com/features/health/chi-lowlake_03jan03,0,7237968.story?coll=sfla-features-headlines Lake Michigan monthly averages nearing record lows[/quote] Another problem in some places is the salination of fresh water near coastal areas due to seawater intrusion from rising sea levels. Desalination plants and the process are very expensive not to mention the cost of transport if need be. They’ll be sure to charge an exorbitant amount for their services. Another way for the wealthy elite to control the poor. news.mongabay.com/2005/1124-reuters.htmlRising seas, disappearing islands to cause environmental refugees in a warming worldIf you type a search for “water shortages” in the news section of any search engine you’ll find a barrage of results from all around the globe. Australia, China, Zimbabwe and yes, even some places here in the US. But I guess it's all just a figment of my imagination. Where does non-biodegradable plastic come from? Is it natural or man-made? A very simple question. Keith Olbermann recently did a segment about a beach in Hawaii (I think?), which was made up of nothing but tiny broken pieces of plastic that had washed up over the years threatening wildlife. www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhQEzR_fJr0Pacific Ocean Death Zonenews.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6740161.stmPlastic blights Hawaii's beachesI can’t believe that I actually have to argue in defense of healthiness and cleanliness which ought to be be self-evident.
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Post by Mech on Jan 13, 2008 10:30:44 GMT -5
Number one....you are getting OFF TOPIC.
This thread was about Snow in Baghdad...and global warming.
Two...I have already stated here that we stilll do have some pollution problems...but not nearly on the level we had in the 19th or 20th Century.
Three....I do more to clean up peoples water through PRIVATE means than any government hugging socialist whiner ever will through hard work, sweat and dedication....and i get paid for it.
Lastly...it is entirely obvious that you hate free enterprise and corporations....but, GUESS who is doing the work to clean up the planet from past blunders? Not the government......nope....PRIVATE INDIVIDUALS........and guess who will solve future problems and get the job done...YUP thats right you guessed...private individuals and corporations...GASP!!!
Not some pencil pushing government beauracracy.
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Post by Swamp Gas on Jan 13, 2008 11:08:46 GMT -5
I have to say that talking about Socialism vs Corporatism is also getting off topic. Personally, i lean toward socialism. For instance Norway and Sweden are orienting their economy toward fossil fuel elimination. They have a higher life expectancy than the US, and are very happy with their governments. The Right Wing has made any form of government the bad guys, which is in fact not true. The extremes are Stalin Russia, Bush America, and Hitler Germany. There is a happy medium between a government that cares for and answers to the people and small businesses. It is PEOPLE that make up a good government.
It may be well that small companies are the way to go, but unfortunately GE, Exxon, Monsanto. etc, are the biggest polluters, and pollution is directly related to Global Warming, Greenhouse gases, excess carbon monoxide/dioxide, hydrocarbons, agent orange, dioxins, and more. These are large companies, and they are the ones running the government now. Small, family run businesses are the targets of the majors.
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Post by Mech on Jan 13, 2008 12:48:36 GMT -5
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Post by Swamp Gas on Jan 13, 2008 14:13:17 GMT -5
That's pretty cool! I remember a 300 MPG Pickup truck back in 10980 that vaporized gas BEFORE it hit the cylinders. What about this? www.teslamotors.comDon't get me wrong, I am all for private individuals and small businesses. I think the biggest problem is corporations running stuff like Health care. The government can be helpful, as I stated in countries like Norway and Sweden, who actually have more freedoms than we do here.
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Post by Mech on Jan 13, 2008 14:21:31 GMT -5
Tesla is way too expensive for a majority population making 8.00 to 20.00 dollars an hour.
Untill the price comes down..it will never be viable.
Actaully...there has been electric cars since the 1930's. One of them went all the way from the east coast to the west coast without stopping at over 60 MPH.
What happened to it?
Guess.
You think the illuminati wants to give us free power?
Anyone who comes up with free energy devices ends up DEAD. There is documentation of all their deaths.
THEY DONT WANT US TO HAVE FREE POWER. IF PEOPLE HAD WEALTH AND WERE IN CONTROL OF THEIR OWN LIVES, IT WOULD BE A THREAT TO THEM.
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Post by Swamp Gas on Jan 13, 2008 16:20:29 GMT -5
Tesla has an under $20,000 model coming out. Again, the technology is expensive at first, but comes down as time goes on. Lithium Ion was not available in the 1930s, only lead acid, and these beasts could not go from zero to sixty in 4 seconds like the Tesla Roadster, which is better than 99% of petrol based cars. Tesla Motors is actually doing quite well, and Theta and I have the president of the company interested in our song "Drive a Cleaner Wave", and we have communicated with him several times. www.noble-gas.com/drive-a-cleaner-wave.mp3Coupled with bacteria-produced hydrogen, these are the technologies that could knock out the polluters and massive ripoffs. Tesla Motors is an example of the small companies you and I mention. Individuals can never have the potential to distribute beyond their basements and garages. Here's some stats on production cars acceleration: 2008 Audi RS4 Cabriolet 4.8 sec 2009 BMW X6 4.8i 6.4 sec 2009 Lincoln MKS 6.9 sec 2008 Saab 9-3 Aero XWD 5.9 sec 2009 Acura NSX 3.5 sec 2009 BMW 135i Convertible 5.0 sec 1965 427 Cobra 3.8 sec 1967 427 Corvette 3.4 sec 1970 426 Hemi Challenger 3.9 sec 2008 Tesla Roadster 3.9 sec
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Post by KNOWTHIS on Jan 13, 2008 20:12:57 GMT -5
Number one....you are getting OFF TOPIC. This thread was about Snow in Baghdad...and global warming. Two...I have already stated here that we stilll do have some pollution problems...but not nearly on the level we had in the 19th or 20th Century. Three....I do more to clean up peoples water through PRIVATE means than any government hugging socialist whiner ever will through hard work, sweat and dedication....and i get paid for it. Lastly...it is entirely obvious that you hate free enterprise and corporations....but, GUESS who is doing the work to clean up the planet from past blunders? Not the government......nope....PRIVATE INDIVIDUALS........and guess who will solve future problems and get the job done...YUP thats right you guessed...private individuals and corporations...GASP!!! Not some pencil pushing government beauracracy. Your main man Ron Paul said himself that we’re heading for a state of “soft fascism”. So yeah, you’re damn right that I’m opposed to that! I’m hardly ashamed of my position. partisanhack.newsvine.com/_news/2007/12/23/1183201-ron-paul-warns-of-soft-fascism-taking-over-americaAnd as far as treating the water, why is it that it must be ‘treated’ in the first place? That’s the question you ought to be asking. Deal with first cause, not the ‘unnecessary’ after-effects. Of course these shady corporate pigs are going to rush in to cash in on our misery. They get to create these problems themselves and then pose as our saviors. Sound familiar? In one of your postings Benjamin Fulford explained that he was prevented from doing a story that he had uncovered about an anti-virus company involved in deep fraud. This company was creating the very viruses that they were supposed to be “defending” us from. The owner of Forbes magazine, which he worked for at the time, was a close personal friend of the owner of this other unnamed company so he just spiked the story. One filthy rich corporate scumbag using his power and influence to protect the corruption of another. It’s no different than the pharmaceutical companies inventing false “illnesses” like “restless leg syndrome” and then offering an expensive product to “cure” it. Many times their “solutions” (the symptoms which could even include death) are just as harmful if not worse then the original “problem”. What do they care though? They’re making record profits and they have shareholders to please. It’s all about the bottom line, wealth before health. Companies like BP (which dump hazardous waste in to the Great Lakes as I’ve pointed out) love to advertise on Fox News as being “green” and allocating money for “alternative energy exploration”. I saw their pathetic commercial once during a particular Hanntiy and Colmes show which was solely dedicated to denouncing taking such measures. Hannity ignorantly explained to his stupefied audience that solar panels don’t work. Why would BP sponsor a program that was rigorously working to derail their own “efforts”? That goes to show just how genuine they are about their phony causes. It’s just a bunch of useless pandering to the public. It’s image damage control because they realize that the people are finally getting fed up with their criminal carelessness. None of it is real though. I wrote to BP about this and received some generic automated response. As far as me being off topic, this is a multi-faceted discussion with many different converging angles, which are all relevant. This is watered down fascism at its worst, by definition!
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Post by Mech on Jan 13, 2008 20:18:55 GMT -5
Any way you slice it....socialism isnt the solution.... I believe in the Free Markert....there are spoilers...yes...but they get bitch slapped as soon as they begin polluting...trust me. I have been onsite of numerous companies that have been hit with such violations.
You act as if there are no rules.....well...um... there ARE....you just don't want to acknowlage the fact.
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Post by Swamp Gas on Jan 13, 2008 20:21:32 GMT -5
Free Market is current China. No regulation, no government oversight.
Free Market is no solution as is socialism.
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Post by Mech on Jan 13, 2008 20:26:14 GMT -5
No...China is just pure slavery and corruption.
They don't give a rats ass about the people...their goal is total power.
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Post by Swamp Gas on Jan 13, 2008 20:34:27 GMT -5
You are somewhat correct, but they do own the US basically, so there is capitalism. There is no government regulation. it is Free Market Capitalism at it's worst.
The Free Market itself does not care about people either. So again, there has to be a central point between Norway style Socialism and Free Market capitalism the way Ron Paul envisions.
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Post by Mech on Jan 13, 2008 20:41:48 GMT -5
Its responsibility..
Originally in the beginning....corporations ONLY had a charter if they played by the rules and didn't cause harm to a community.
If the courts decided that they harmed the community or individuals...their corporate charter would be REVOKED. Hence...they would literally go out of business. You can thank a handful of nasty globalist corporatists for skirting around those rules...
If we were to return to those rules.....they wouldn't be getting away with the shit they are today.
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Post by Swamp Gas on Jan 13, 2008 21:12:10 GMT -5
I agree 100%
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Post by KNOWTHIS on Jan 13, 2008 21:37:30 GMT -5
Any way you slice it....socialism isnt the solution.... I believe in the Free Markert....there are spoilers...yes...but they get bitch slapped as soon as they begin polluting...trust me. I have been onsite of numerous companies that have been hit with such violations. One of the very best examples of an unconstitutional, PRIVATELY OWNED monopoly working in conjunction with the government which has been sucking the US economy dry for years, is the Federal Reserve. How’s that working out for us? When the elites run in to a bind they just print more money, which increases inflation which only effects the common man, the working class, not them. I never said that socialism is the solution. But neither is ceding our control to the self-serving modern day robber barons. We’re stuck in a very difficult situation, which requires profound change. Most 9/11 truthers talk about the historical greatness of the Founding Fathers and what they had stood for. The political system that they had originally devised and put in to place was the very best that they could come up with, the best in the world. They understood just how easy it would be for government to go bad. They did their best to install as many checks and balances as possible to prevent one branch of government from seizing too much power over the others. They also knew that the government was only as good as those holding office. Our government could be made to work if we had a real democracy and the true ability to elect high-minded people in to office. That’s not the case right now. We've learned that electronic voting has defeated the integrity of our elections. No, I act as if there are so-called “rules” which just so happen to be meaningless because they are either skirted through loopholes, not properly enforced or ignored entirely. Here’s a prime example of just how well these “rules and regulations” are being followed. Take the recent scandal involving toys shipped to the US from China that were tainted with hazardous levels of lead. Here’s the rundown which reveals yet another case of corporate profits being placed before consumer safety while the fascist government does their bidding. www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/01/AR2007110102732.htmlIndustries Paid for Top Regulators' Travel Two Heads of Product Safety Agency Accepted Trips From Manufacturer GroupsWhen big money is involved all of the rules are thrown out the window. Now ask yourself, who has all of the money? It’s not that surprising that these hazardous lead filled toys were coming from one of the most polluted, ‘unregulated’ and corporate driven countries in the world. The pattern is a dangerous one and the blueprint is being set up right here in the US. Now that is what truly needs to be acknowledged.
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Post by Mech on Jan 13, 2008 21:49:23 GMT -5
Thats why we need more WATCHDOGS...like consumer advocate Ralph Nader, Congressman henry waxman and the like.
Voted for Nader in 96 for President. Dont agree totally with the Green Party Platform...but i thought he was the best candidtate at the time. and he did fairly well for a minority candidate. Still repect Ralph and for what he did to fight out-of-control corporate power and stick up for the consumer. I do not support his endorsement of John Edwards for president however.
THAT is why many of these corps WENT to CHINA and MEXICO...no regulation...but..WHO allowed them to go there?
GOVERNMENT...reaganite and Neo-con assholes....lets not forget LIBERAL Bill Clinton who PASSED Nafta/GATT.
I am for FREE MARKET...not Crony Capitalism..because it isnt TRUE capitalism.
Its just as bad as top-down socialism.
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Post by KNOWTHIS on Jan 13, 2008 22:05:56 GMT -5
there are spoilers...yes...but they get bitch slapped as soon as they begin polluting...trust me. I have been onsite of numerous companies that have been hit with such violations. Mostly minor slaps on the wrist. Once these regulatory agencies become completely overrun by former corporate lawyers and lobbyists it’s over. The FDA has been rendered null and void thanks to big pharma. Look at how well the EPA responded to 9/11 on behalf of our firefighters. Rules and regulations barely exist. You can even examine some of the highly unsafe business practices of the coal mining industry which has lead to numerous deaths and other injuries in recent times. Sure they may get cited for a few measly safety violations which might sound all good and dandy when reported on the dreadful evening news but these fines are usually relatively small, if they're ever even paid at all. That part is rarely ever reported by the corporate media. When labor unions attempt to organize in order to protect themselves (because no one else will) these companies simply declare bankruptcy to shed themselves of the unions and then restart under a new name. They then go right back to their dangerous methods of retreat mining regardless of the consequences (which are decidedly few and far between). thinkprogress.org/2006/01/04/coal-mining/Administration Neglected Coal Mining Safety
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Post by Mech on Jan 13, 2008 22:11:48 GMT -5
OK....
Do you know WHY industrial companies are LEAVING the USA en masse?
YES...due to greed...BUT.
ALSO DUE TO REGULATION.
They can simply move to China and Mexico and POLLUTE MORE...because the USA has strigent pollution and air quality laws (more than most).
Tell me im wrong.
You can't
Its 100% true.
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Post by KNOWTHIS on Jan 13, 2008 22:26:05 GMT -5
Thats why we need more WATCHDOGS...like consumer advocate Ralph Nader, Congressman henry waxman and the like. Voted for Nader in 96 for President. Dont agree totally with the Green Party Platform...but i thought he was the best candidtate at the time. and he did fairly well for a minority candidate. Still repect Ralph and for what he did to fight out-of-control corporate power and stick up for the consumer. I do not support his endorsement of John Edwards for president however. THAT is why many of these corps WENT to CHINA and MEXICO...no regulation...but..WHO allowed them to go there? GOVERNMENT...reaganite and Neo-con assholes....lets not forget LIBERAL Bill Clinton who PASSED Nafta/GATT. I am for FREE MARKET...not Crony Capitalism..because it isnt TRUE capitalism. Its just as bad as top-down socialism. I agree with much of what you’re saying. I agree that NAFTA was terrible. I despise the Clintons. This is a problem spanning both parties. And sure, government allowed it all to happen. But why? Where do our politicians get most of their largest campaign donations? Who is providing our politicians with expensive gifts and fancy golf vacations overseas for free to buy influence? Who offers our politicians cushy jobs after they retire from politics in exchange for desired policy in the meantime? Have you heard about how much Huckabee salivates over freebies? www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzI1VIciQNAHuckabee Likes GiftsMoney, money, money, it all comes back to money. Wealthy big business owners with the financial pull to run this country as they please. The free-market system is fine but it must be regulated to some degree. Otherwise over time it becomes just another form of fascism. That is exactly what we have. The wealthy have more power than the government does right now. They’re working together for their own self-interests, not ours. We can’t continue to allow our corporations to model themselves after what China is doing. Their people are slaves. That's what they want for us here. Tom Delay is on record stating this. And yes we do need more watchdogs, environmental, civil liberties and otherwise.
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Post by KNOWTHIS on Jan 13, 2008 22:29:14 GMT -5
So is your solution to then adopt the Chinese model for ourselves? We could have sweatshops, undrinkable water and limits on the numbers of children one can have. If it were up to me I’d revoke the citizenship of any CEO who wishes to offshore his/her company to China and then sell their garbage to us back here at home.
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