Captain Kangaroo passes

[Swamp Gas]

Used to watch him in 1955, much different times.




Bob Keeshan, Captain Kangaroo, Dies at 76

By CHRISTOPHER GRAFF, Associated Press Writer

QUECHEE, Vt. - Bob Keeshan, who gently entertained and educated generations of children as television's walrus-mustachioed Captain Kangaroo, died Friday at 76.  <br>
Keeshan died of a long illness, his family said in a statement.

Keeshan's "Captain Kangaroo" premiered on CBS in 1955 and ran for 30 years before moving to public television for six more. It was wildly popular among children and won six Emmy Awards, three Gabriels and three Peabody Awards.

The format was simple: Each day, Captain Kangaroo, with his sugar-bowl haircut and uniform coat, would wander through his Treasure House, chatting with his good friend Mr. Green Jeans, played by Hugh "Lumpy" Brannum.

He would visit with puppet animals, like Bunny Rabbit, who was scolded for eating too many carrots, and Mr. Moose, who loved to tell knock-knock jokes.

But the show revolved about the grandfatherly Captain Kangaroo, whose name was inspired by the kangaroo pouch-like pockets of the coat Keeshan wore.

"I was impressed with the potential positive relationship between grandparents and grandchildren, so I chose an elderly character," Keeshan said.

Keeshan, born in Lynbrook, N.Y., became a page at NBC while he was in high school. He joined the Marine Corps in 1945.

His first television appearance came in 1948, when he played the voiceless, horn-honking Clarabell the Clown on the "Howdy Doody Show," a role he created and played for five years.

Later he played Corny the clown, the host of a noontime cartoon program in New York City.

"Captain Kangaroo" debuted on Oct. 3, 1955, and Keeshan remained in that role until 1993.

Keeshan, who moved to Vermont in 1990, remained active as a children's advocate, writing books, lecturing and lobbying on behalf of children's issues.

He was critical of today's TV programs for children, saying they were too full of violence. And he spoke wherever he went about the importance of good parenting.

"Parents are the ultimate role models for children," he said. "Every word, movement and action has an effect. No other person or outside force has a greater influence on a child than the parent."

When Fred Rogers, the gentle host of "Mister Rogers' Neighborhood," died last year, Keeshan recalled how they often spoke about the state of children's programming.

"I don't think it's any secret that Fred and I were not very happy with the way children's television had gone," Keeshan said.

In 1987, Keeshan and former Tennessee Gov. Lamar Alexander (news - web sites) co-founded Corporate Family Solutions, an organization that provided day-care programs to businesses around the country.

Keeshan believed children learn more in the first six years of life than at any other time and was a strong advocate of day care that provides emotional, physical and intellectual development for children.

"Play is the work of children. It's very serious stuff. And if it's properly structured in a developmental program, children can blossom," he said.

Keeshan's wife, Jeanne, died in 1990. He had three children.

[Thetaloops]

Captain Kangaroo, Mr Green Jeans, Mr. Moose and Bunny Rabbit, were a mainstay of my first years. I have very vivid memories of this pleasant atmospere, they created. Funny and warm.

I completely agree with him and Mr. Roberts. Todays children's programming is churning out many nasty and arrogant children. My nephew has gone from being a very sweet and loving two year old to a war mongering, unsociable 5 yr old. It is very scary. His idea of fun is drawing a complete battle scene. Complete with planes dropping bombs, cannon like guns lobbing missles back and forth, and arrays of machine gun fire. Let us not forget the bloody bodies laying around. My brother and his wife, hus parents, even though they appeared to be peace loving hippies in the 60's, find no problem with this. It is very scary. I even believe my nephew has said that he wants to be like Donald Rumpsmell. This is really scary. What is this generation going to turn the world into? And can you blame the children, when war and destruction is all they see on TV and Playstation games? Another Columbine? I really hope not.

[McCulloch]

I rarely missed his show as a child. When I read about his death, I teared right up.

Mr Greenjeans! He was a favorite.

Favorite episode was when they were playing ping pong. The things one remembers...

[Mech]

Theta: "My nephew has gone from being a very sweet and loving two year old to a war mongering, unsociable 5 yr old. It is very scary. His idea of fun is drawing a complete battle scene. Complete with planes dropping bombs, cannon like guns lobbing missles back and forth, and arrays of machine gun fire. Let us not forget the bloody bodies laying around. My brother and his wife, hus parents, even though they appeared to be peace loving hippies in the 60's, find no problem with this. It is very scary. I even believe my nephew has said that he wants to be like Donald Rumpsmell. This is really scary. What is this generation going to turn the world into?"

Hmmm....Its a good question.

I look at it this way...there are SEVERAL factors. The most crucial is PARENTS and how they raise their kids....second..the kids environment and third....biological/psychological factors.

My little nephew is into the power rangers and the japenese animation cartoons and he loves the karate kicks and chops etc. I eveen taught him to make a proper fist so he wouldnt hurt his thumb.


Yet...he also LOVES and I mean LOVES scooby doo.

So far he seems pretty well adjusted...and I credit that to my sister and her husband (and my good friend) Dave.

I was put in front of the TV in the early 70s with hefty doses of Violent repeat bugs bunny cartoons,70's hanna barbera cartoons, mr.Rogers, sesame street (way before elmo), electric company and stuff like that.

I'd say thee day i learned the difference between TV fake violance and the real thing was the day that dad took me hunting for the first time. Saw the REAL thing first hand. It was a valuable lesson. Made me realse that death for no reason is wrong...and violence should only be used as a last resort either to defend yourself or your family.

I think the bigger danger to kids today is turning theem into obese, inactive consumerist drones.

[Thetaloops]

I agree with you that a large part of the development of a child depends on the environment that is available to them. My brother loves to watch war moves and act like a tough guy. Throwing attitude around, especially when drinking. His wife is very well read and devoted, but very submissive. I think that there has been and may still be some screaming a yelling between the two. My nephew made his biggest change when i know for sure that his parents were fighting at night when the kids went to bed. Patrick probably was laying his bed shaking and frightened. This may be why be resorts to military and fighting, thinking that fighting is normal. I had experienced similiar things as a child, but went the opposite where I avoid confrontation, as much as I can. I really do not enjoy the fight, as many people do. I had too much of it and very little envolvement with sports.

Sports is a way of finding some good out of competition and confrontation. Baseball more than Football. It developes timing, as well as, health through exercise. Football is a little to brutal for me. Just these big Hulks jumping on top of each other. And girls bouncing their boobs like bimbos.

To each his own, and that is how I have had to leave it with my brother, sister-in-law and their son. It is their son and they must decide what they want to expose him too. Which comes back around to Kaptian Kangaroo. I think the Peace movement of the 60's came out of the peaceful and space oriented programs that we as kids were exposed to.

Mech: 'I was put in front of the TV in the early 70s with hefty doses of Violent repeat bugs bunny cartoons.'

There was alot of violence in the cartoons. Do you think this encouraged you to go in to a military field? These are more violent times, but is that because of the violent media or does the media reflect the violence in the people? Like which came first the chicken or the egg came first, unanswered question?

Mech: '70's hanna barbera cartoons, mr.Rogers, sesame street (way before elmo), electric company and stuff like that'

So it seems that there was some silliness that went on as well, so in the long run it is up to the person to find peace in themslves and in the world.

Mech: 'I'd say the day i learned the difference between TV fake violance and the real thing was the day that dad took me hunting for the first time. Saw the REAL thing first hand. It was a valuable lesson. Made me realise that death for no reason is wrong...and violence should only be used as a last resort either to defend yourself or your family.'

Mech, do you think hunting is a last resort or to defend yourself? I would choose to shoot at targets and tin cans than an animal? Maybe in the past before food could be stored and transported, killing for food and clothing was necessary, but I don't think it is now. Just wondering your thoughts on this? I know sometimes lessons some through in unpleasant ways. Like having an argument, but I would like to try to learn with out the killing and arguing.

[Mech]

Actually...I became a sailor because I thought it was honorable to want to serve your country and defend the constitution and everyones rights. I took Karate since I was 8 years old because I was skinny and got into a lot of fights growing up. I suppose my Karate training played a role in wanting a military career. But also my love of all things mechanical had a lot to do with it. At time I had no professional training to speak of. Becoming a sailor was my ticket to get more training and money for school.

In retrospect..I'm glad I did. I got to visit MANY different countries and it gave me an understanding that peeople everywhere really arent all that different. If I had stayed in the hometown I grew up in...I doubt I would have the worldview I have today.



"Mech, do you think hunting is a last resort or to defend yourself? I would choose to shoot at targets and tin cans than an animal? Maybe in the past before food could be stored and transported, killing for food and clothing was necessary, but I don't think it is now. Just wondering your thoughts on this? I know sometimes lessons some through in unpleasant ways. Like having an argument, but I would like to try to learn with out the killing and arguing."

Hmmm...you see..this is where I know you are going to disagree with me BUT.....I'm sorry but if you were alone in the wilderness in harsh conditions....you would find it nearly impossible to survive on plants alone. Fat is the sustenance you need in vast quantities in a survival situation. I have NEVER heard of a vegetarian survivalist. I sincerely believe that they wouldn't last long during a harsh winter in the wilderness.

I feel that killing for sport is wrong. If you are going to kill an animal...you should utilize all of it if you can. I think the whole idea of taxidermy and "mounting" animal heads on the wall is totally disrespectful of nature. If you have ever killed an animal before...if you dont have some feeling and sympathy for the animal....you really are NOT a hunter.

I'm sorry but I think everyone should learn emergency hunting/gathering skills IN CASE somthing happens.

[McCulloch]

I have to agree about hunting. As a young child, I learned tracking, hunting, fishing, foraging..all those skills as if it were simply the most natural thing in the world.

But I had a very unusual grandfather I suppose. He taught me to never, never kill for sport. That when an animal was taken in hunt, that it was a gift that should be respected and not wasted. To not use what was taken was considered a sin.


We existed on our garden, and our hunting/fishing. We rarely had to visit the grocery store. We canned, froze, and put up our own preserves.

I really am confident that I could survive in these hills around me if I had to. I thank my grandfather for that.

[Thetaloops]

I think survival has become something else other then hunting and gathering. There are so many humans on the planet that it would be difficult to imagine being cut off from the social structure. I would say for swamp and I, we are gathering a surplus of lentils, fenugreek seeds, and broccoli seeds for sprouting, seaweed (dulse and kelp) and spirulina. These store great and with these and water, we could live for along time.

I have read of men stranded on the ocean, living on seaweed and rainwater. This is a vegetarian survivalist technique.

We are dependent on society for swamp's need for insulin, being diabetic. So, for us we must stay close to Gotham as you have called it Mech. What I figure, it will be possible to survive in and around a city, unless it is turned into powder by a bomb and do it without killing.

The other aspect is the clothing. Polyester is a suitable replacement of skins for durablity and warmth. And polyester everywhere now.

Maybe if we thought about ways of not killing, we would have less war. Maybe it is because of human cruelty that we must war with each other until we find a better way?? I think this is true.

Here is a site that had some vegetarian survivalist foods and supplies.

www.geocities.com/tominelpaso/links.html

[Swamp Gas]

i heard my name mentioned, and thought I'd join in. Survival in the wilderness could be thought of on many levels. How do outdoorspeople survive in a hi-tech future? There is always a balance between technolgy and philosophy.

I won't get into the decidely vegetarian anatomy of humans vs carnivores in nature. That's best for someone to research themselves.

There has been many vegetarian survivalists throughout history. Here are two Theta and I met in California in the eighties.



Gyspy Boots - He's aboout 93 or 94 years old now. He has stayed in the wilderness for a year at a time, living on roots, fruits, leaves, grasses, nuts, and barks. Still feisty.
















Viktoras Kulvinskas - Also lived in the wilderness, after quitting his job as a programmer in the early 60's. Went to the woods on numerous occasions, with a backpack of unsprouted beans and seeds, and like Boots, lived off of local vegetation, I believe in New York State. He wriote an incredible book called "Survival Into The 21st Century". He is incredibly prophetic also. In the book he mentions fascism making another attempt to take over, poisons in meat that would destroy brains, and more war. Hence his, "go to the mountains ideas".

[Mech]

Amazing...........

Still, somehow I doubt someone living on a Veggie only diet would be able to survive a harsh Northeastern winter blanketed weekly by snow.
I seriously doubt it. If they did they were very lucky or had incredible skills.

I agree...store-bought meat is definately 100% questionable.
However...I just don't understand the demonization of meat eaters. Vegans have often called meat eaters "murderers" and "war makers" etc.
This isn't the way to make friends. Just because I eat meat, doesnt make me want to go kill someone or start a war...or oppress women.
I don't understand what the trip is.

In my opinion...@$$holes are @$$holes....no matter what they eat.

[Swamp Gas]

Mech said:

I just don't understand the demonization of meat eaters. Vegans have often called meat eaters "murderers" and "war makers" etc.
This isn't the way to make friends. Just because I eat meat, doesnt make me want to go kill someone or start a war...or oppress women.
I don't understand what the trip is.

In my opinion...@$$holes are @$$holes....no matter what they eat.

Theta and I are generally more tolerant of people's diets, being Vegans for 32 years now. I can't speak for other people, but this is my take on it:

Vegans generally believe taking an animals life for the purpose of food is esentially taking away the animals desire to enjoy life, and there is not a large leap from how real monsters in history, like Bush, Hitler, Stalin, and Ghenghis Khan, slaughterd people the same way animals are slaughtered. Unnecessary to survival. Descarte postulated the theory that animals did not have souls, which was in direct contradiction to the Gnostics, who believed that animals possessed souls, thus the theory of Jesus being a vegetarian. No coincidence that the Descartian influened Inquisition looked at Pagans, gays, mushroomeaters, and animals in the same light. I still say we as a society are suffereing from what the Inquisition wrecked upon the world.

If highly advanced Interdimensional or Intergalactic Travelers came to this planet, would we expect them to consume humans, if they were on the same intelligence quotient as humans to animals? Just worth the imaginative leap, to think about that.

We have lots of carnivorous friends, including Mech, and try not to talk about it, unless asked or someone attacks the Vegey lifestyle. I will say this, it was like a Beam if Light shone on us when we switched over to veggie.

There is another aspect to this, which is in line with my own personal Unified Field idea. Every action we take, sends ripples into the universe, in both directions, internally and externally. Even our thoughts effect the universe.

The reason we Vegans are here are the same reason Kucinich is sticking with the campaign as long as he can. To remind people of their conscience. Diet is more than enzymes, proteins, carbohydrates, and fats. It has been said their are correlations at every step of the way. As Above..So Below is the saying.

Getting back to the Vegans going yelling at Mech. Theta and I had a bunch of Hindus "mooooing" around us, back in '72, when we eating a roast beef sandwich. It bothered us, but we listened to our conscience. We got health, helping ecology, and our spiritual selves were at ease. We won't do that to people, but I do understand the frustration. We are saddened when we see innocent people and animals hurt for no reason. Anger is something that happened thirty years ago.

[McCulloch]

I do deeply respect your path as Vegans. I do not agree with the logic, however I would never assume a self righteous stance. I only know what my own logic and experience brings me to.

I have questions about focusing strictly on animal life as the thing to be reserved and sanctified. What of plants? These are living things too, also believed to have spirit. Yet we eat them for sustanence. Not only that, but we pick them for pleasure, and clear them away when they are an obstacle to our roads and our homes. We do not consider that plants scream?

What of other animals besides humans that are predators? We do not condemn their natural instinct and need to eat meat. Why are we different? I don't think we are. We require sustenance as omnivores as well. We have canines. We have been omnivores for thousands of years.

I do not kill for pleasure or convenience. I'll not kill for principle. I do not see any warring as an answer to any conflict. I only see it as a sorrowful loss and waste of life and spirit.

I do not pick flowers because they are pretty and I want them on my table. I do not kill insects if they find their way into my home. I catch them and release them outside. I do plant vegeatables to eat, and harvest other wild plants from the hills as medicine and food. This is killing of necessity for my own survival. Just as the deer eat in the fields, and the cats prey on mice and other animals for sustenance. I am not arrogant in the sense of seeing myself as superior to any other living thing. I am simply part of the same circle of life and death as all living things. Recognizing this has humbled me.

I could be dinner for another animal. Although I would fight in defense of my own survival, if I don't survive, it is not the animal's sin. It is as it is naturally. I've always felt that hunting down an animal that has killed a human is arrogant and unjust.

As Mech pointed out, learning to hunt for one's food teaches one to value life more in many ways.

I've studied a great deal about Gnosticism, but don't recall vegetarianism in any of what I read. I do know that according to their creation myth, the world was not created by the true God, but by the demiurge Ialdabaoth. Thus, it is a flawed world. The spark of divinity was bestowed upon the third son of Adam, Seth, and it is this gnosis which we aspire to awaken. I could see where vegeterianism would fit in, because it would futher break the chains we have to this flawed world for the demiurge, thus bringing us closer to awakening. Is this what you refer to?

Anyway, I am just being outspoken with absolutely no disrespect intended. I rambled, but I will stop here, before I bore even myself to tears!

[Swamp Gas]

PART 1

McCulloch said:

I do deeply respect your path as Vegans. I do not agree with the logic, however I would never assume a self righteous stance. I only know what my own logic and experience brings me to.

Logic, ah yes, fascinating! There was a reason Gene Roddenberry made the character of Mr. Spock a vegetarian.

home.att.net/~CJMCG-JDD/spock.html

Are humans vegetarian or carnivorous? Any creature is capable of eating meat, even cows, pigs, and chickens fed other animals.

www.skcv.com/vegetarian1.htm

Carnivore claims of Vegetarian diet being inferior: my notes are italics.

Intestinal receptors for heme iron. The existence of intestinal receptors for the specific absorption of heme iron is strong evidence of adaptation to animal foods in the diet, as heme iron is found in nutritionally significant amounts only in animal foods (fauna).

iron is actually dangerous to heart ventricular action. Magnesium will also carry oxygen to a smaller degree. One Tablespoon of Spirulina will supply 9 mg of Iron on an unbound form, more than enough. The RDA of 18 mg a day is extremely low of an estimate of the daily average omnivore diet. 50 to 60 mg is more accurate on the lowend of hemochromatosis.

Requirement for vitamin B-12 in human nutrition, and the lack of reliable (year-round) plant sources suggests evolutionary adaptation to animal foods in the human diet.

intestinal bacteria is the #1 source of B12 synthesis. Lactobacillus and other Pro-biotics will trigger off the production of B12. Vegetable sources of B12 are all seaweed, Algae, Spirulina, and Chlorella

Plant foods are poor sources of EFAs. In general, the EFAs in plant foods are in the "wrong" ratio (with the exception of a very few exotic, expensive oils), and the low synthesis rates of EPA, DHA, and other long-chain fatty acids from plant precursors point to plant foods as an "inferior" source of EFAs. This strongly suggests adaptation to foods that include preformed long-chain fatty acids, i.e., fauna.

By “exotic” the author means Flax oil, Borage Oil, and Primrose Oil. Blue-Green Algae is the prime source of EFA, EFA, and DHA, and Algae is the main source that fish consume. These are plentiful, and Flax Seeds can be crushed and made into bread

Taurine synthesis rate. The low rate of taurine synthesis in humans, compared to that in herbivorous animals, suggests human adaptation to food sources of taurine (fauna) in the human diet.

Again. Seaweeds and Spirulina are two low level sources of Taurine. It is manufactured from the amino acid methionine, the culprit in raising the very dangerous homocysteine levels. High Taurine and Methionine levels in humans are the #1 indicator of heart disease, not cholesterol levels. Taurine is thus needed in lower levels, but without the synthesis from methionine. Solution: Vegetable Source.

Slow conversion of beta-carotene. The sluggish conversion rate of beta-carotene to vitamin A, especially when compared to the conversion rate in herbivorous animals, suggests adaptation to dietary sources of preformed vitamin A (i.e., a diet that includes fauna).

Pro-Vitamin A or Retinol, is highly toxic. Green Leafies and Seaweed have very small amounts of Retinol. Beta-Carotene is a much better, albeit slower method of obtaining through synthesis, Vit A. In addition, the greens have much more anti-oxidants than flesh, and are alkaline in balance.

Plant foods available in evolution were poor zinc and iron sources. The plant foods available during evolution (fruits, vegetative plant parts, nuts, but no grains or legumes) generally provide low amounts of zinc and iron, two essential minerals. These minerals are provided by grains, but grains are products of agriculture (i.e., were not available during evolution), and contain many antinutrients that inhibit mineral absorption. This suggests that the nutritional requirements for iron and zinc were primarily met via animal foods during human evolution.

As addressed before, iron is needed in larger amounts for anemia and women in period. Zinc is present in almonds, and most other ancient legumes and nuts

Bitter taste threshold as a trophic marker. An analysis of the human bitter taste threshold, when compared to the threshold of other mammals, suggests that our sensitivity to the bitter taste is comparable to that of carnivores/omnivores.

I don’t put much credibility in this last statement. That is a subjective and learned response, rather than an anatomical[i/]

I have questions about focusing strictly on animal life as the thing to be reserved and sanctified. What of plants? These are living things too, also believed to have spirit. Yet we eat them for sustanence. Not only that, but we pick them for pleasure, and clear them away when they are an obstacle to our roads and our homes. We do not consider that plants scream?

I have heard this argument many times, and the answer is the same now. Animals have the ability to avoid or run. Plants do not. Animals have brains, which every culture from the beginning of recorded history says is the Seat of the Soul. Plants have no brains. Animals nurture their young. Plants do not. Animals have eyes in which to see. Plants do not. Do plants howl in pain? This is the stuff of psychic and New age thought. Could be, but I have not seen proof.I do know that plants respond to kind thoughts and nice music.The absolute ideal diet would be nuts and fruits. Since animals for food eat plants, by cutting down on meat eating, we are cutting down on total plant eating also

What of other animals besides humans that are predators? We do not condemn their natural instinct and need to eat meat. Why are we different? I don't think we are. We require sustenance as omnivores as well. We have canines. We have been omnivores for thousands of years.

Humans are made essentially of Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal Stock. Cro-mags clubbed Neanderthals and ate their brains. Neanderthals farmed and threw trinkets in with their buried dead. Cro-Mags left the dead on the open ground. Did Cro-Mags absorb the intelligence of Neanderthals by eating their brains? However, Cro-Mags discovered weapons to fight the Saber-Toothed Tigers, which would have assuredly wiped-out the human race. Hence, the roots of war, and possibly an innate revenge on the animal kingdom. I do believe that meat-eating and war were necessary in Linear Evolution, but both are completely unnecessary from an evolutionary, anatomical, and dietary aspect.

[Swamp Gas]

PART 2

I do not kill for pleasure or convenience. I'll not kill for principle. I do not see any warring as an answer to any conflict. I only see it as a sorrowful loss and waste of life and spirit.

I do not pick flowers because they are pretty and I want them on my table. I do not kill insects if they find their way into my home. I catch them and release them outside. I do plant vegeatables to eat, and harvest other wild plants from the hills as medicine and food. This is killing of necessity for my own survival. Just as the deer eat in the fields, and the cats prey on mice and other animals for sustenance. I am not arrogant in the sense of seeing myself as superior to any other living thing. I am simply part of the same circle of life and death as all living things. Recognizing this has humbled me.

I could be dinner for another animal. Although I would fight in defense of my own survival, if I don't survive, it is not the animal's sin. It is as it is naturally. I've always felt that hunting down an animal that has killed a human is arrogant and unjust.

As Mech pointed out, learning to hunt for one's food teaches one to value life more in many ways.

I respectfully disagree. I was taught as a child to repair and help sick and injured animals, rather than hunt for food, and that helped me deal with the world in a balanced and caring way. My tolerance towards gays, love of animals, a great 32 year marriage, old friends from the 1950’s, and world view, have been nurtured by those teachings. I have seen telepathy in animals. Gorillas saving human babies. Cows saving humans. If a human or animals threatened me, my Bio-Survival circuit would kick in and deal accordingly. But here’s the kicker, meat-eaters always go after the kinder vegetarian creatures because of tender hide. Strange, considering the ones who save animals, except for dogs, are usually herbivores. The smartest animals are the follwing : Apes and Chimps, African Grey and other Parrots, Dolphins, porpoises, pigs, horses, dogs. Vegetarian people: Einstein, Ghandi, Jesus, Leonardo da Vinci, Nicolas Tesla, Pythagoras, Plato, Plutarch, St. Frances of Assisi, Sir Isaac Newton, Voltaire, Benjamin Franklin, Ralph Waldo, Henry David Thoreau, George Bernard Shaw, Albert Schweitzer, H.G. Wells, Tony Benn, David Bowie, Robert Fripp, Meat Beat Manifesto, Marl Twain, Zappa Children, Weird Al Yankovic, Stevie Wonder, Johnny Weismuller, Hulk Hogan, Killer Kowalski, Elvira, Dennis Weaver, Suzanne Vega, Steve Vai, maey Tyler Moore, Woody Harrelson, Leo Tolstoy, Ringo Starr, Paul Mccartney, George Harrison, John Lennon, Siouxsie of the banshees, William Shakespeare, Peter Sellers, Smokie Robinson, Raffi, Eddie Vedder, Kraftwerk, Peter Gabriel, Paul Newman, Ralph Nader, Dennis Kucinich, Lene Lovich, Arthur Brown, Billie Jean King, Billy Idol, Richie havens, and so many more

I've studied a great deal about Gnosticism, but don't recall vegetarianism in any of what I read. I do know that according to their creation myth, the world was not created by the true God, but by the demiurge Ialdabaoth. Thus, it is a flawed world. The spark of divinity was bestowed upon the third son of Adam, Seth, and it is this gnosis which we aspire to awaken. I could see where vegeterianism would fit in, because it would futher break the chains we have to this flawed world for the demiurge, thus bringing us closer to awakening. Is this what you refer to?

Links to Gnostic and Essene Vegetarian Principles:

essenes.net/subindexvegan.htm

www.jesusveg.com/index2.html

www.compassionatespirit.com/was_jesus_a_vegetarian.htm

Anyway, I am just being outspoken with absolutely no disrespect intended. I rambled, but I will stop here, before I bore even myself to tears!

On the closing note, something very personal:

I have been a type 1 diabetic for 45 years. Changed my diet immediately from crap sugar, starch, meat, and garbage to healthier in the early 60’s. Ten years later, adopted a vegetarian/, then right after a Vegan diet. I am currently suffering ZERO problems associated with diabetes, The doctors are baffled. I tell them it’s the diet and my happy marriage, and they are reluctant to say that because of a) eating crap themselves and/or b) on a divorce (50% rate). No retinopathy, no neuropathy. Blood Ph at 6.5, disease usually occurs at Ph 7.1-8.0, highly acidic. Every diabetic I know is either dead, or very sick, eye and kidney problems. So far, holding it off. I believe that if I ate meat, I would be in way worse shape,

[McCulloch]

I completely agree that your diet has staved off the diabetes. I wouldn't credit it entirely to a meatless regimen, but you've done well to manage a disorder that is devastating for many. Diabetes runs in my own family, and has taken the lives of three of my family members. I do not have the disorder, nor do my children. I work in a hospital as a CT/xray technologist. I've seen the damage this disorder can do. You are to be commended for paying attention and doing the right things for yourself!

I am afraid that we would debate this forever, but I would rather keep it at "agree to disagree".

Please understand that I have not simply killed every single creature that I've run accross, because I happen to be an omnivore. I've nursed orphaned deer foals and released them when they were ready. I've also nursed birds, rabbits, and a variety of other creatures that have been found in trouble. (Including a very stubborn snapping turtle). These skills also were taught to me by my grandfather.

I hope that, given how much common ground we do share (and given the list, that is alot of common ground), that our difference in this will not be problematic.

[Swamp Gas]

There never was a problem. I know a few vegetarians (NOT Vegans) who I would not trust, and Omnivores who are trustworthy. My answer was to people (not yourself), who think Vegan is an inferior lifestyle, and put out ridiculous claims on the internet. Some friends of ours are vegetarians, and adopted a baby from birth, who is a vegie. The baby is very healthy, much more than her classmates, but the state has warned the parents they'll take the child away if they want to. After being herbivores for 32 years, and so we're told, look 15 years younger than our age.

I wanted to point out that it is CHOICE, not necessity, that one chooses one lifestyle over the other, and that people can and are VERY healthy eating only plants, contrary to Mass Public Propaganda.

Diabetics should eat an alkaline diet, but meat eating is the most acidic diet you could think of. Carbs are acidic, ALL cooked food is acidic. Raw fruits and vegetables usually alkaline. This is my most current field of study, acid/alkaline balance, and it's role in disease resistance. In this sense, I feel meat and cooked food is dangerous to the diabetic.

Since you are a nurse, you can ask me any questions on dealing with my illness, and I'd be happy to help.

[McCulloch]

How the heck did anyone come up with the idea that being vegan was inferior? The nerve of the state (oh wait this is BB's government we are talking about, eh..) to dare try a stunt like that!

No, I don't in anyway see vegetarianism as inferior. I see it as a choice, and often it is a deeply spiritual one. Just as my choice and my attempt to explain it is for me.

So. We will agree to disagree, and with respect for each other as on different but not unequal paths.

You are correct about the diabetes. There is more than one type, and I've seen diet do wonders with certain types. So many times, it can be controlled strictly by diet, and yet a soul won't do so and the damage is extreme. Yet I've seen others who were just as careful as could be, and yet they still struggled with the effects.

Anything that you come across that is something you feel I could use to benefit others, please by all means tell me.

And thank you for setting me at ease. I did fear that maybe the fact that I was an omnivore would put me in a bad note.