Michael Moore Rips CNN A New One

[KNOWTHIS]

www.alternet.org/blogs/video/56446/
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transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0707/09/sitroom.03.html

I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

Millions of Americans are filling theaters across the country to see Michael Moore's controversial look at the U.S. healthcare system. "Sicko" was number nine on the top 10 box office draws this weekend. But the movie is being criticized by some who accuse Moore of playing loose with the facts.

Michael Moore will join us here in THE SITUATION ROOM in just a moment. But first a "Reality Check" from our chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): "Sicko" throws hard punches at the United States healthcare system, and it seems just about everyone has something to say.

(SOUNDS)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Moore was spot on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The facts, I think, support what I believe.

GUPTA: And Moore presents a lot of facts throughout the movie. But do they all check out? Keeping them honest, we did some digging and we started with the biggie. The United States slipped to number 37 in the world's healthcare systems.

It's true, 37 is the ranking, according to the World Health Organization's latest data on 191 countries. It's based on general health level, patient satisfaction, access and how it's paid for. France tops the list. Italy and Spain make it into the top 10. The United Kingdom is 18.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello!

GUPTA: Moore brings a group of patients, including 9/11 workers to Cuba, and marvels at their free treatment and quality of care. But hold on. That WHO list puts Cuba's healthcare system even lower than the United States, coming in at number 39. Moore asserts that the American healthcare system spends $7,000 per person on health, whereas Cuba spends $25 per person.

Not true, but not too far off. The United States spends $6,096 a year per person versus $229 a year in Cuba. And astronomically more money doesn't mean far better outcomes. In fact, Americans live just a little bit longer than Cubans on average. So Americans do pay more, but the United States also ranks highest in patient satisfaction.

And Americans have shorter wait times than everyone but Germans when seeking non-emergency elective procedures like hip replacement, cataract surgery or knee repair. That's not something you'll see in "Sicko" as Americans tell their tales of lack of coverage and suffocating red tape.

It's true that the United States is the only country in the Western world without free universal access to health care. But you won't find medical utopia elsewhere. The film is filled with content Canadians and Brits sitting in waiting rooms, confident care will come.

In Canada, you can be waiting for a long time. A survey of six industrialized nations found that only Canada was worse than the United States when it came to waiting for a doctor's appointment for a medical problem.

PAUL KECKLEY, DELOITTE HEALTH CARE ANALYST: That's the reality of those systems. There are quotas. There are planned wait times. The concept that care is free in France and Canada and Cuba, and it's not. Those citizens pay for health services out of taxes. And as a proportion of their household income, it's a significant number.

GUPTA: It's true that the French pay higher taxes and so does nearly every country ahead of the United States on that list. But even higher taxes don't give all the coverage everyone wants.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fifteen-to-20 percent of the population will purchase services outside the system of care run by the government.

GUPTA: So, there's no perfect system anywhere. But no matter how much Moore fudged the facts -- and he did fudge some facts -- there's one everyone agrees on. The system here should be far better. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Earlier I spoke to Michael Moore about criticism of his new film.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Michael Moore is joining us now live from Detroit. Michael, thanks very much for coming in. You want to respond to anything ...

MOORE: First of all, Wolf, yeah, well -- yeah, I'd like about 10 minutes to respond to what was said.

BLITZER: Give us a couple of headlines, what you'd like to say.

MOORE: I don't talk in sound bites. So -- that report was so biased. I can't imagine what pharmaceutical company ad's coming up right after our break here.

But why don't you tell the truth to the American people? I mean, I wish that CNN and the other mainstream media would just for once tell the truth about what's going on in this country, whether it's with healthcare -- I don't care what it is. I mean, you guys have such a poor track record.

And for me to come on here and have to listen to that kind of crap. I mean, seriously, I haven't been on your show now for three years. The last time I was on, you ran a similar piece about "Fahrenheit 9/11" saying this can't be true what he's saying about the war, how it's going to be a quagmire, the weapons of mass destruction.

You know, and -- why don't you start off actually with my first appearance back here on your show in three years and maybe apologize to me for saying that three years ago, because it turned out everything I said in "Fahrenheit" was true. Everything has come to happen.

Everything I said. I mean, I was -- I took you in that film to Walter Reed Hospital and it took three years before you or any of the rest of the mainstream media would go to Walter Reed Hospital and see what was happening to our troops. So for me to have to sit here and listen again to more crap about socialized medicine or how the Canadians have it worse than us and all this, all the statistics show that we have far worse healthcare than these other industrialized countries.

We're the only ones that don't have it free and universal. And, you know, there's a -- there's a -- you said that Germany was the only one that was better than us in terms of wait times. The Commonwealth Fund last year showed of the top six countries, we were second to last, next to Canada. It showed that Britain, for instance, 71 percent of the British public, when they call to see a doctor, get to see the doctor that day or the next day. It's 69 percent in Germany. It's 66% in Australia. And you're the ones who are fudging the facts. You fudged the facts to the American people now for I don't know how long about this issue, about the war.

And I'm just curious when are you going to just stand there and apologize to the American people for not bringing the truth to them that isn't sponsored by some major corporation? I mean, I'll sit here for as long as it takes, if you can do that for me.

BLITZER: Just in fairness, we had a lot of commercials for "Sicko" that we've been running on CNN as well. So we have commercials. This is a business, obviously. But let's talk a little bit about ...

MOORE: You have a nightly medical report. You have something called "The Daily Dose." I watch CNN. You have it every day. "The Daily Dose" sponsored by -- fill in the blank. And you are funded by these people day in and day out. Don't even compare that to my movie being out for a couple of weeks and a couple of rinky-dink ads for 15 seconds. Come on. Come on, Wolf!

BLITZER: No, no -- I don't know if you're familiar with Dr. Sanjay Gupta's record, but I would stack up his record on medical issues with virtually anyone in the business.

MOORE: All right. So when I -- when I now put on my Web site, as I will do tonight, how his facts were wrong about the $7,000 that we spend, it's actually -- I've read one report now, it's even more than $7,000 that we spend per person each year in this country. I'm going to put the real facts up there on my Web site so people can see what he said was wrong.

BLITZER: Well, if we get that confirmed, obviously, we'll correct the record. Sanjay - but I'm just saying ... MOORE: Oh, you will? You'll be getting it.

BLITZER: Sanjay Gupta is not only a doctor and neurosurgeon, but he's also an excellent, excellent journalist. Look, I saw the film, and it's a powerful, powerful ...

MOORE: I saw Dr. Sanjay Gupta over there embedded with the troops at the beginning of the war. He and the others of you in the mainstream media refused to ask our leaders the hard questions and demand the honest answers. And that's why we're in this war -- we're in the fifth year of this war because you and CNN, Dr. Gupta, you didn't do your jobs back then and now here we are in this mess.

What if you'd actually done the job on that? That's why anybody who hears anything he anything of what you say now about universal healthcare should question what you're saying, what you're putting out there. You didn't do the job for us with the war. You're not doing it with this issue. And I just -- I just wonder when the American people are going to turn off their TV sets and quit listening to this stuff.

BLITZER: Sanjay Gupta did an excellent job covering that war. He was with the Navy's medical doctors and he went in and risked his life and actually performed neurosurgery on the scene.

MOORE: You have the questions. Why are we here? That's the question. Why are we here in this war? Where's the weapons of mass destruction? Why didn't you -- why did it take you so long, Wolf, to finally take on Vice President Cheney? It took you to 2007 before you made the man mad at you.

BLITZER: Those are fair questions.

MOORE: Four years!

BLITZER: Let's talk a little ...

MOORE: Where were you?

BLITZER: Let's talk about "Sicko." That's the film that you're here to talk about.

MOORE: Yeah, let's forget that. Yeah, OK.

BLITZER: There's plenty to talk about the war. There's plenty to talk about with "Sicko."

MOORE: I just haven't seen you in three years, so I was wondering how you felt for three years of not seeing me after you trashed "Fahrenheit" and said that I was wrong about, oh, yeah, this war was -- come on, I'm just waiting for an apology.

BLITZER: Michael, we've invited you on numerous occasions. Unfortunately, you've declined our invitations the past three years but there are plenty of times we asked you to come on the show and plenty of times you've declined.

MOORE: Really? And you wanted to apologize? Why did you want to talk to me?

BLITZER: No, we wanted to interview you. That's what we do on television. Let's ...

MOORE: You don't have to apologize to me. Maybe just apologize to the American people and the families of the troops for not doing your job four years ago. We wouldn't be in this war. If you had done your job. Come on. Just admit it. Just apologize to the American people.

BLITZER: Which of the presidential candidates who are out there right now do you think would do the best job fixing the nation's healthcare system?

MOORE: Well, the Democrats have to be asked some very specific questions. Too many of them are saying, well, they're for health care for all people. Very few of them are being as specific as Mr. Kucinich is in saying, well, I support the Conyers bill in Congress HR-676. That's what we need to hear.

And I would like to hear what these other Democratic candidates are going to say and do in specifics in removing the private insurance companies from the equation. We shouldn't have profit involved when we talk about taking care of people's health.

BLITZER: Is there a candidate, though, you think -- is Dennis Kucinich your candidate? Who do you think -- I know in the film you go after Hillary Clinton. And you're very, very bipartisan in your criticism in the film, Democrats and Republicans.

MOORE: Yeah. When you say I go after, let's be clear. I actually think she did a very brave thing to try and address this issue 14 years ago. And they stopped her cold. They went after her with the same kind of, you know, trash pieces I just had to watch. And so that stopped her. And now we've had to suffer through 14 more years of having no universal healthcare in this country. Our own government admits that because the 47 million who aren't insured, we now have about 18,000 people a year that die in this country simply because they don't have health insurance. That's six 9/11's every single year.

If you times that by 14 since Mrs. Clinton was unceremoniously removed from the agenda here, she hasn't been able to talk about this. She hasn't really put forth her specific plan. I'm hoping that the people have gone to my movie, the people that are concerned about this issue, will write to Mrs. Clinton and say, please, universal healthcare that's free for everyone who lives in this country. It will cost us less than what we're spending now ling the pockets of these private health insurance companies, of these pharmaceutical companies. So there's still some chance to have an effect on people like her.

And of course, there's one candidate who isn't even in the race yet. I don't know if he will be. But he was right about the war before it began, unlike CNN -- did I mention that?

BLITZER: You did.

MOORE: And -- and he's right about global warming and he's right on this issue, too.

BLITZER: Al Gore. The Democrats, by and large, most of them support some major health reform, including universal healthcare, which is what you support. I want you to listen to what Rudy Giuliani, the Republican front-runner said at the Republican debate that I hosted up in Manchester, New Hampshire. Listen to this.

MOORE: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Free market principles are the only things that reduce cost and improve quality. Socialized medicine will ruin medicine in the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right. What do you say to Mayor Giuliani?

MOORE: So he's saying that he hates Medicare?

BLITZER: He's saying socialized medicine will ruin medicine in the United States.

MOORE: That's what we have. Ask a doctor if they'd rather have a Medicare patient or somebody who has got a lousy HMO, because they know at least Medicare -- the government will pay them, send them a check and not have to fight an hour on the phone just to get a $15 office visit paid for.

I mean, seriously, we have one of the largest socialized medicine systems in this country. It's called Medicare and Medicaid. And while it's underfunded and too much of the control of it has been handed over to private companies, we've already proven we can do things like that, and Social Security and other things very well. So I hope that he wasn't attacking help for senior citizens, because that's what it sounded like to me.

BLITZER: I've got a whole bunch of questions. Unfortunately, we're out of time. But if you stick around ...

MOORE: We're out of time! I'll see you in three years.

BLITZER: No, no, stick around. We'll tape some more. We'll run it tomorrow. We want to make sure you get your chance to ...

MOORE: Oh, no, see, that's the deal, Wolf. There's no taping with me. As you know, it's rare that they put me on live. And to your credit, thank you for doing that. You can see why. They generally don't like to have me on live because, you know, a lot of that would have been cut out.

BLITZER: Well, no ...

MOORE: Thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it.

BLITZER: We're not going to cut a second of it out if you want to tape something.

MOORE: Run it unedited?

BLITZER: Run it unedited.

MOORE: And people can ...

BLITZER: And people going to your Web site, it's a free country, they can find out the truth, about what it is.

MOORE: The facts about Sanjay Gupta, they can find out about his facts, right? We can find that out, right? BLITZER: Absolutely. Michael Moore.

MOORE: OK.

BLITZER: Thanks very much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Sanjay was in surgery today. He missed this interview, but he will be here in THE SITUATION ROOM tomorrow to respond, along with part two of the interview with Michael Moore. He did agree after that interview to stick around. We taped part two. You will see it, completely unedited. The full interview, part two of the interview, with Michael Moore. You're going to want to see that, tomorrow, right here in THE SITUATION ROOM.

[Swamp Gas]

Michael Moore was in great form. Blitzer would not answer any of his questions, such as WMDs. Lou Dobbs is a Right Wing Ass Wipe, trying to tie Chavez in with Moore. So what Dobbs is implying is that anyone who is for the people is a Marxist.

I'm sick of these Corporate lovers, and that includes most Libertarians.

[KNOWTHIS]

Part two of Moore’s interview with Blitzer was tonight. Sanjay Gupta had to admit that he misquoted Moore in CNN’s “fact check” segment. CNN’s Gupta is going to be on with Michael Moore tonight on Larry King. It ought to be good.

Whose job is it to run a ‘fact check’ on the news media’s “fact check” segments? If it weren’t for Moore raising such a sink CNN never would’ve offered their correction.

I’ll post transcripts and video if and when they become available. If anyone wants to see the Larry King show they might better want to tune in. I doubt that video of it will become available.

The only thing that I like about Dobbs is his willingness to fight to keep American jobs from going overseas. He has a decent book called ‘Exporting America’ which is about outsourcing. Many conservatives have chided him for this as mentioned in the book. On his web-site he lists all of the traitorous American companies that offshore. He does piss me off in many other areas though as you have pointed out.

As far as Blitzer. He used to work for AIPAC, the Israeli lobbyist organization. Enough said right?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_Blitzer

Biography

His career in journalism began in 1972, in the Tel Aviv bureau of the
Reuters news agency. He soon moved to Washington, D.C., where he was White House correspondent for The Jerusalem Post after a spell working for the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) as a publication editor for the Near East Report.

As far as Libertarians go. Here’s one for you. The snide, bow-tie wearing punk-ass Tucker Carlson.

On April 11, 2006, Carlson (who is known for wearing bow-ties) announced on his MSNBC show that he would no longer be wearing a bow-tie, adding, "I just decided I wanted to give my neck a break. A little change is good once in a while, and I feel better already." He now wears neckties on the air. Carlson had previously been mocked for his bow-ties, and the matter was often teasingly brought up in many interviews over the years.

[KNOWTHIS]

Moore took a hilarious tone when Blitzer asked if he was going to Iran. He goes, “oooh, the next boogeyman, no one’s going to believe it this time”.

Part 2........

transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0707/10/sitroom.01.html

BLITZER: And joining us now, Michael Moore. The documentary entitled "Sicko."

Michael, thanks for sticking around. We had part one of the interview yesterday. This is part two. Let's go through some of the criticisms of the film "Sicko," because I want to give you a chance to respond to the critics.

MICHAEL MOORE, DIRECTOR, "SICKO": Yes, sure.

BLITZER: Here is...

MOORE: Wolf, can we all -- can we just point out though, first, that even though this is today and we are saying it is part two, we actually taped this yesterday. Because I don't want people to think I slept in these clothes, and you know, didn't change for you there.

BLITZER: No, OK then, fair enough. We taped it after the first part. And we are going to run this interview as is. We are not going to edit it. We are not going to cut it up or anything like that.

MOORE: OK, good.

BLITZER: All right. So let's talk about, one of the criticisms, and you have heard it, is that you have taken the best of the Canadian system, the best of the British system, the French system, the best of the Cuban system and highlighted that in the film, and you have really taken the worst of the American system and highlighted that.

Is that a fair criticism?

MOORE: Well, first of all, when you are trying to find a better system, you would actually look for the best things in those other systems. So that is what I went and did. Because all we have heard for how many years -- you know, all the bad things about the Canadian system, all the bad things about the British system.

I mean, really, I think if you went through your own archives here at CNN, I would be thrilled to see if there was a piece in the past that said, look how great the Canadian system is here, or look at the French system and how they take care of their people, not just with health care, but free college, low-cost daycare, et cetera, et cetera.

So we don't usually see those stories on our American media about what they are doing right. And so I thought, wouldn't this be a good idea for me to be the balanced one, to provide the balance that the American people haven't received through their media.

And so in this film, you get to see Canada the way it has never been shown, and France, and Britain. And you learn how they are doing so many things that are right. Yes, are there problems with their systems? Absolutely. There are flaws in any system that is run by human beings.

But we know what those are. We have heard a lot about them. I want to know what is good about them, because we need to fix our system here. And let me tell you, I didn't have to go very far to show just how bad the system is here.

I think just about any one of your viewers can tell you a story that they have had with the health care system, or a story that a family member or a neighbor has had. I mean, this is so predominant throughout the country.

People hate their HMOs, they hate this lousy system. Doctors hate it. Doctors are demoralized. And it has to be fixed.

BLITZER: And one of the most powerful parts of the film, right at the beginning of the film, when you make the point, this is not a film about those 40 million or 50 million Americans who don't have health insurance, this is a film about the 250 million who do have health insurance.

Another powerful part was when you took those 9/11 rescue workers to Cuba. And they got some treatment there. It was a very emotional ending to the film. What is the latest on the U.S. government's complaints, if there are serious complaints, that you broke the law about A, going to Cuba, and B, that those three rescue workers may have violated the law by going with you to Havana?

MOORE: Well, first of all, the law says that you can go to Cuba for journalistic endeavors. That is what this is. It is a non- fiction film. It is a work of journalism. So whatever trouble the Bush administration is trying to cause is -- they are just using their federal agency for political purposes, that is not unusual for them.

I accept that that is how they behave. And we will deal with them. And I'm not worried about it. For them to think about going after the 9/11 rescue workers who received treatment down there, I just can't imagine that they would do something as crass and disgusting as that.

So let's hope that that doesn't happen, because they were able to get care down there from the Cuban doctors that they weren't able to get here in our own country. And of course, the reason we went there wasn't to go to Cuba, it was -- if you have seen the movie, it was to go to Guantanamo Bay, which is American soil there on the Cuban island. We went there because we found out that people -- al Qaeda detainees, or those who are accused of being al Qaeda there, in Gitmo, get better care than the 9/11 responders who ran down there to save lives. It just made no sense to me. So I just wanted to take the rescue workers down to Gitmo to get the same care that we are giving al Qaeda.

BLITZER: And I said, that was a powerful part of the film. The Iranian news agency is reporting you are going to go to Iran and show the film there. I wonder if that is true?

(LAUGHTER)

MOORE: Really? No.

BLITZER: That is what they are saying.

(LAUGHTER)

MOORE: Really? Are they saying that? Or is that FOX News?

(LAUGHTER)

BLITZER: That is what apparently they are saying. I have no idea if that is true or not.

MOORE: No, no, no, I'm not going to Iran.

(LAUGHTER)

MOORE: Ooooh! Scary, is that our next boogieman?

(LAUGHTER)

MOORE: Hey, let's the war drums going. No one is going to fall for it anymore, are they? I don't think so.

BLITZER: Are you satisfied, are you happy with the response you have gotten from this film?

MOORE: Absolutely. Oh man, I will tell you, it has been incredible. And the letters I'm receiving from people, there are so many stories. God, I would love to share some of them with you. I would love to see you guys do some of the stories on the things I'm hearing and seeing of what people are having to go through with our health care system.

Would you be willing to do that, if I shared some of this with you?

BLITZER: Yes. We would very happy to...

MOORE: I mean, I can't...

BLITZER: We would love to follow up. This is a critical issue. I have seen the film and I have covered this story for a long time. I was the White House correspondent during the Clinton administration when Hillary Clinton tried to get something going. And I remember what she did and I remember the aftermath, very, very personally because I was right there watching all of it unfold.

And I know what has been tried and failed over these many years. This is a serious problem that we face in the country. And I think everyone agrees. The only question is, how do you fix it? You have some ideas. Mayor Giuliani has some different ideas, as we pointed out in part one of this interview.

Let me just wrap it up with Iraq right now, because you have leveled some serious charges, and "Fahrenheit 9/11" was a powerful film as well. What do you see happening right now? Because the country clearly has turned dramatically against this war and they would like U.S. forces out as quickly as possible.

MOORE: Well, that is what has to happen. We have to bring our troops home. No mother, no father tonight should have to get a knock on the door saying that their son or daughter died for what? I just -- I can't imagine that happening to myself and I don't want that to happen to any parent in this country.

And frankly, I would like to see, you know, a few of our elected representatives, especially the Democrats, who were elected in November to do a job -- the American people gave them direct orders, end this war. And they haven't done it. And believe me, that hasn't been lost on the average person who has watched the Democrats.

That is why your polls show that Congress gets even a lower approval rating than Mr. Bush. They are not happy and the members of Congress and the Senate had better figure this out, because they are not going to find people storming to the polls next November to support them if they feel that they have been deceived and conned by people who said that they would end this war and then didn't do it.

BLITZER: And on this issue, you like Al Gore as well?

MOORE: Well, Al Gore is good on so many issues. I mean, whether it was about the war, global warming, health care, I mean, you know, I'm not endorsing him or anybody else, but I'm just saying that I would like to get the debate and the discussion going here with -- I don't want to see cookie-cutter candidates saying the same thing here, and being afraid to be bold leaders.

I mean, what has happened to this country? I mean, Wolf, we used to have leaders like FDR, who defeated -- with our allies, defeated the Nazis and Mussolini in less time than our commander-in-chief has been able to secure the road from the airport to downtown Baghdad.

I mean, that is just -- that should just disgust everybody. But we used to have real leaders then. We had another president who said we are going to put a man on the Moon in eight years. And it happened.

Government used to work. The problem isn't government here. The problem is that we have elected people who appoint "heckuva job" Brownie to fill a position that then ruin it for everyone. And that is what has to change. And I think that is what people are hopeful about at least.

BLITZER: Michael Moore's film is called "Sicko." Michael, thanks for sticking around.

MOORE: Thank you, Wolf. And thank you for telling me during the break that you really liked the film.

BLITZER: I thought it was a powerful film. Thank you.

MOORE: Thank you very much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And up ahead, our chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, is standing by to join us live. As you may remember, from yesterday's SITUATION ROOM, Michael Moore responded to Sanjay's report. Sanjay is going to talk to us about that. That's coming up next.

Also, there has been another shakeup in the McCain presidential campaign. Jack Cafferty wants to know what you think of the future of the senator's campaign.

And you probably know only too well what it's like to have your cell phone call dropped. But what is it like when you cell phone company drops you? Our Mary Snow has the answer. That's all coming up right here in THE SITUATION ROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The filmmaker Michael Moore unhappy with criticism of his new film on the U.S. health care system entitled "Sicko." Our chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, checked out some of the facts in the film. He's joining us now from the CNN Center in Atlanta.

We did a set-up piece, if you will, a background piece going into the interview yesterday, you heard Michael Moore make some angry comments, Sanjay. Tell us what you think about the charges that he leveled against you?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, I mean, look, there's a lot of interest in health care, where the system is going and what can be done about it. There are people very concerned about health care in this country. And obviously, Michael Moore is one of them.

In that fact-check piece that you're talking about, Wolf, I did make a mistake as I've talked about and apologized for. There was a misquoting of Michael Moore with regards to per capita spending in Cuba for health care. He said it about $251. I misquoted him as saying it's $25. I got the number wrong there.

And as a doctor and as a journalist, I want to get these numbers right. Because I think it's important to make this discussion go forward. That's why we're going to have this discussion tonight, hopefully a concrete, productive discussion with Michael on "LARRY KING LIVE" to get at a lot more of these sorts issues, Wolf.

BLITZER: So let me just be clear with the viewer. You're going to be on together with Michael Moore later tonight on "LARRY KING LIVE" and you're going to go through a lot of these points, his criticisms of you and where you see the situation standing.

GUPTA: Yes, absolutely. And I think this is a worthwhile discussion. Look, this isn't a debate. It is a discussion. I think the one thing that I'm pretty confident we agree on is that the health care system in this country is not where we want it to be. There are a lot of people who are going without basic health services. And that's something that we need to fix. I think everyone agrees on that.

I think that this film has done a lot of things, but one of the things it does is brought this discussion back to the forefront. And we want to make sure to use this as an opportunity to educate people about this. So hopefully, again, it's a concrete, productive discussion.

BLITZER: You have seen the film, I have seen the film. But do you think it's really going to have an impact and really change the nature of the health care system here in the United States? And A, people who have no insurance are going to be able to get insurance, but B, people who do have insurance are going to be able to get the kind of treatments, get the types of benefits that they really need to stay healthy and survive?

GUPTA: Well, I think you bring up two very important points. As far as whether it's going to make a change, I hope so. Look, there has been a disconnect for a long time between what people understand the health issues to be and how they vote when the important elections come.

People don't always vote their conscience at the ballot box. And you know, hopefully that will change this time around with regards to what people want out of their health care system.

But also with regards to the services they need, we spend so much of our health care budget towards taking care of people after they have already become sick instead of preventing some of those diseases in the first place. Medically and morally it makes a lot of sense to keep people from getting sick in the first place. And I think that has got to be a big component of fixing the health care system overall -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. We're going to see you and Michael Moore together with Larry King later tonight here on CNN, 9:00 p.m. Eastern. Sanjay, thanks very much for doing this. Let's check in with Lou Dobbs to see what is coming up right at the top of the hour.

Lou, what are you working on? LOU DOBBS, HOST, "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT": Yes, Wolf. As I was listening to you and Sanjay, I was thinking that Michael Moore hasn't had much impact, his two previous films in point of fact not working out so well in terms of affecting change, at least certainly heightening public consciousness. But it's an interesting consideration.

[KNOWTHIS]

www.alternet.org/blogs/video/56566/

[KNOWTHIS]

One key point made by Moore on Larry King and I’m paraphrasing.

You want to know why there’s a little longer wait in Canada for healthcare? Because everyone is in line. Here in the US we’ve removed 45 million people from the line. So sure, you’re going to get quicker service.

That was stated so perfectly.

[KNOWTHIS]

In the beginning they reiterate some of what was aired in previous programs so you’ll probably recognize some of it.

transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0707/10/lkl.01.html

LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, controversial filmmaker Michael Moore and CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
Last night on CNN, new controversy as Michael Moore took issue with Dr. Gupta and CNN's coverage of his new movie "Sicko".

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "THE SITUATION ROOM")

MICHAEL MOORE, FILMMAKER: So for me to have to sit here and listen again to more crap about socialized medicine --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Now Michael Moore tells us exactly what set him off.

And Sanjay Gupta weighs in on his fact check of "Sicko".

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: And then, he hired a thug to have her blinded and maimed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, how are you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: And when he got out of prison, they got married. And after his affair led to a scandalous trial, they're still together.

Meet the stranger-than-fiction couple who star in the new movie "Crazy Love."

All next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Good evening.

My guests tonight are filmmaker Michael Moore and CNN's chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

They're here to talk about a flap yesterday on CNN's "SITUATION ROOM". Michael Moore was Wolf Blitzer's guest. He was on to talk about his new movie, "Sicko". Before the interview, the show played a fact check piece on "Sicko" by Dr. Gupta.

Mr. Moore took great exception to that report when Wolf interviewed him after it ran.

Now let's watch an edited version of that exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

MOORE: That report was so biased, I can't imagine what pharmaceutical company ad is coming up right after our break here.

But, you know, why don't you tell the truth to the American people?

I mean I wish that CNN and the other mainstream media would just for once tell the truth about what's going on in this country -- whether it's with health care, I don't care what it is. I mean you guys have such a poor track record. And for me to come on here and have to listen to that kind of crap, I mean, seriously --

WOLF BLITZER, HOST: I don't know if you're familiar with Dr. Sanjay Gupta's record. But I would back up his record on medical issues with virtually anyone in the business.

MOORE: All right. So when I -- when I now put on my Web site, as I will do tonight, how his facts were wrong about the $7,000 that we spend -- it's actually - I've read one report now it's even more than $7,000 that we spend per person each year in this country.

I'm going to put the real facts up there on my Web site so people can see what he just said was absolutely wrong.

BLITZER: Well, if we get that confirmed, obviously we'll correct the record, Sanjay.

But I'm just saying --

MOORE: Oh, you will?

Good.

BLITZER: Obviously, Sanjay Gupta --

MOORE: You'll be getting it.

BLITZER: -- is not only a -- is not only a doctor and a neurosurgeon, but he's also an excellent, excellent journalist.

MOORE: Thank you for having me on --

BLITZER: It we could tape it, it will --

MOORE: I really appreciate it. BLITZER: We're not going to cut a second out of it, if you want to tape something.

MOORE: You'll run it unedited?

BLITZER: We'll run it unedited.

MOORE: OK.

BLITZER: And --

MOORE: And people can go to my --

BLITZER: People can go to your Web site.

MOORE: -- people can go to my Web site tonight.

BLITZER: It's a free country.

MOORE: And find out the --

BLITZER: They can find out the truth, whatever it is.

MOORE: -- the facts about Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

They can find out about his facts, right?

We can find that out, right?

BLITZER: Absolutely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Now for those of you who didn't get a chance to see it, here's the Sanjay Gupta fact check report on "Sicko".

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM SICKO, COURTESY THE WEINSTEIN COMPANY)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's not on, right?

MOORE: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: (voice over): "Sicko" throws some hard punches at the United States' health care system. And it seems just about everyone has something to say.

SARAH BERK, HEALTH CARE AMERICA: He plays fast and loose with the facts.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Moore was spot on. MOORE: The facts, I think, support what I believe.

GUPTA: And Moore presents a lot of facts throughout the movie.

But do they all check out?

Keeping them honest, we did some digging and we started with a biggie -- the United States slipped to number 37 in the world's health care systems.

It's true. Thirty-seven is the ranking, according to the World Health Organization's latest data on 191 countries. It's based on general health level, patient satisfaction, access and how it's paid for.

France tops the list. Italy and Spain make it into the top 10. The United Kingdom is 18.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM SICKO, COURTESY THE WEINSTEIN COMPANY)

MOORE: Hello?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: Moore brings a group of patients, including 9/11 workers, to Cuba and marvels at their free treatment and quality of care.

But hold on.

That WHO list puts Cuba's health care system even lower than the United States, coming in at number 39.

Moore asserts that the American health care system spends $7,000 per person on health, whereas Cuba spends $251 per person. Not true -- but not too far off. The United States spends $6,096 a year per person, versus $229 a year in Cuba.

And astronomically more money doesn't mean far better outcomes. In fact, Americans live just a little bit longer than Cubans, on average. So Americans do pay more, but the United States also ranks highest in patient satisfaction. And Americans have shorter wait times than everyone but Germans when seeking non-emergency elective procedures, like hip replacement, cataract surgery or knee repair.

That's not something you'll see in "Sicko," as Americans tell their tales of lack of coverage and suffocating red tape.

It's true that the United States is the only country in the Western world without free universal access to health care.

But you won't find medical utopia elsewhere. The film is filled with content Canadians and Brits sitting in waiting rooms, confident care will come. But in Canada, you can be waiting for a long time. A survey of six industrialized nations found that only Canada was worse than the United States when it came to waiting for a doctor's appointment for a medical problem. PAUL KECKLEY, DELOITTE HEALTHCARE ANALYST: That's the reality of those systems. There are quotas. There are planned wait times. The concept that care is free in France, in Canada and Cuba, and it's not.

Those citizens pay for health services out of taxes. And as a proportion of their household income, it's a significant number.

GUPTA: It's true that the French pay higher taxes -- and so does nearly every country ahead of the United States on that list. But even higher taxes don't give all the coverage everyone wants.

KECKLEY: Fifteen to 20 percent of the population will purchase services outside the system of care run by the government.

GUPTA: So there's no perfect system anywhere. But no matter how much Moore fudged the facts -- and he did fudge some facts -- there's one everyone agrees on -- the system here should be far better.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: By the way, that report that you just saw was updated from the version that ran yesterday. The original report did have one error.

Before I get to Michael Moore, let me ask Sanjay to -- what -- what happened with that correction?

GUPTA: -- Yes, we made a mistake, Larry, with regards to the per capita spending for Cubans. Michael correctly -- he said $251 in the movie. We said $5, misquoting him $25 per capita in the piece. And that was a mistake of ours. It was an error of transcription and it's -- we want to get these facts and figures right, as a doctor and a journalist, so we corrected that. But we wanted to make sure we just made that very transparent.

KING: Michael, what ticked you off so much about that report?

MOORE: -- Well, there's still a lot of facts that remain untrue in that report.

KING: Go.

MOORE: -- OK.

I'll start with the per capita that we spend in this country per person. The film says nearly $7,000 per person in the United States we spend on health care every year. Dr. Gupta said it was around $6,000.

Unfortunately, he's using old statistics from 2004. My statistics are actually from Mr. Bush's Health and Human Services Department, from 2007. And that's only one of a number of things he uses. The Cuban longevity list --

KING: But how -- how vast is the difference? MOORE: -- He's using -- well, you mean the longevity rates?

KING: No, between what he reported of being spent and you report being spent?

MOORE: -- It's a -- it's about a $1,400 difference now. This year Health and Human Services says that we're going to spend about $7,400 per person in this country, not 6,000, as Dr. Gupta said. He's using 2004 statistics.

Now, here's the sad thing about this, Larry, is that this is now the third time this report ran. It first ran on "ANDERSON COOPER" right after I was on your show on June 29.

The day before, on June 28th, we spoke to Dr. Gupta's senior producer, Chris Gajilan, and we gave her in -- writing -- all the facts and all the evidence and the backup for those facts. So they've known now since June 28th that all their facts are wrong --

KING: OK.

MOORE: -- I have the e-mail right here.

KING: Hold it right there.

OK.

MOORE: Here it is, right here.

KING: All right. I believe it. Hold on a second.

MOORE: We gave this to your senior producer --

KING: I'm sure you sent it.

Hold on, Michael.

KING: Hold on. Hold on. Hold on.

I'm going to be balanced here.

Sanjay, you want to respond that he gave you the facts and you didn't run the facts he gave you?

GUPTA: Well, you know, look, we try and look for some of the best sources that we can possibly find, because we think we owe that to our viewers.

You know, Michael has a lot of different numbers here and he's pulling them from different places. One quick example -- Michael, I think you're going to agree with me on this --

MOORE: Oh --

GUPTA: Just hang on one second. $251 is what you cited in the movie as the per capita spending, which I just corrected, by the way -- you heard that -- per capita in Cuba. You have $229 on the Web site. So your Web site and your movie, first of all, don't jive.

But I think even more interesting --

MOORE: That's not true. There you go again. There you go again.

GUPTA: Michael, give me one --

MOORE: That's not true.

GUPTA: Give me one second, Michael.

Let me just finish.

That's -- where you pulled the $251 number was a BBC report, which, by the way, stated that the per capita spending in the United States was $5,700. You chose not to use the $5,700 from one report and chose to go to a totally different report and you're sort of cherry picking data from different reports.

I know that the first (INAUDIBLE) --

MOORE: That's not true either.

GUPTA: Well, why didn't you use the $5,700 number from the BBC report?

MOORE: I'll tell you --

GUPTA: Because that's where you got the $251.

MOORE: Because it's not true. It's not true --

GUPTA: Why did you use the $251 then?

MOORE: -- that -- I'm going by -- I'm using.

KING: One at a time.

MOORE: I'm using President Bush's own statistics from Health and Human Services. And I put this up on my Web site so people can go and source it themselves. And, in fact, when I --

GUPTA: Michael, you're using projected numbers, though, right?

You're using projected numbers?

And we're using actual numbers.

MOORE: What I did -- yes, in the --

GUPTA: You're using projected numbers.

MOORE: And in the movie -- right.

And in the movie I use the number from Health and Human Services, which as I said, nearly $7,000 per person and Health. And Human Services, last year, said it was a little over $7,000.

So that statistic is correct.

Five minutes ago --

KING: In essence though, fellows --

MOORE: -- I posted --

KING: Hold on.

MOORE: I -- let me just finish, though. I posted this e-mail that we had with your producer a day before this report ran so that you had all the facts. You ran the story knowing that the facts were wrong and I posted this five minutes ago --

KING: But, wait a minute.

MOORE: -- and (INAUDIBLE).

KING: Why --

GUPTA: Michael, just -- just, if I can say --

MOORE: So people can read this for themselves.

GUPTA: Just because you say they're wrong, I mean it doesn't make it so, Michael. I mean we try and do what you do. We try and get the best available data --

MOORE: I'm not the one saying it's wrong. President Bush says you're wrong.

KING: Michael, don't interrupt.

Don't interrupt.

MOORE: (LAUGHTER).

GUPTA: We -- you took issue with the ranking of the United States health care versus Cuba, 37 versus 39. We used World Health Organization data. We used the World Health Organization data for the numbers that you just heard in terms of per capita spending. We used the World Health Organization data for mortality rates, as well.

I mean you say that was flatly untrue in terms of -- of the mortality in Cuba versus the mortality in the United States.

Michael, you just can't say things like that without backing it up.

I can show you the data. You've seen it yourself, which I think is most irksome, because you know that there's data out there that actually shows --

KING: There's a key here.

GUPTA: -- the United States' mortality rates are actually lower.

KING: In essence, Dr. Gupta, did you like the movie?

GUPTA: I thought it was a good movie. And I wanted to say that.

MOORE: (LAUGHTER).

GUPTA: And I think it -- no, I mean, listen, I think it strikes at this irrefutable fact that just with about every American that you speak to, Michael, or that I've spoken to, is unhappy with our health care system. It's broken. We get it. And the fact that you try and, you know, peg me or anybody else with -- with somehow being responsible or not fixing it in some way, I think, is ludicrous.

I thought it was a good move because you're going to raise awareness about this very important issue. People don't --

KING: That's what I didn't understand.

Why, Michael, did you get so mad?

[KNOWTHIS]

I thought that report was kind of balanced, and in the end, he agreed with you.

MOORE: Yes. In the end --

KING: Why did you get so mad?

MOORE: -- he said the facts were fudged and --

well, he said the facts were fudged. That's a lie.

KING: Some of the facts, he said.

MOORE: And so, anyone who speaks a lie -- no, none of the -- well, none of facts are fudged and it's all -- I'll give you -- this is a good example, Larry. And I asked you before we went on if -- if your producer could put up the slides, because he said that we didn't point out that Cuba was number 39.

It's right there in the movie, right there on the screen. You can see Cuba is 39. And -- and when he ran his report, anybody who TiVoed it can re-run it now, and you can see that they've covered up the -- the CNN logos have covered up Cuba as number 39.

It's right there and he's just not telling the truth. And you --

GUPTA: Now, Michael --

KING: I've got to get a break.

MOORE: -- you don't have to take my word for it. KING: Hold it.

We'll come right back.

MOORE: You can just go to Health and Human Services.

KING: We'll be right back with Michael Moore and Dr. Sanjay Gupta on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE.

Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back with Michael Moore of film fame. His latest, "Sicko".

And Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN chief medical correspondent.

All this began with Wolf Blitzer yesterday and continuing today here on LARRY KING LIVE, at least we have them both together.

Gentlemen, try not to interrupt.

Try to make the answers a little shorter.

We're going to cover as much as we can in the remaining moments.

Dr. Gupta, what did he fudge?

GUPTA: Well, you know, we talked about the specific numbers with regards to Cuba per capita spending versus in the United States. And look --

KING: All right, let's get through that.

GUPTA: Well, I mean, he pulls $251 from this BBC unsourced report and then he -- and then he has this $7,000 number, which is a projected HHS number. It's not -- it's not an actual number yet.

And you brought up the point, Larry, maybe the numbers aren't that wildly different. But I think the numbers are important here because I think the issue here is that I think it blackens the eyes of people who are actually trying to do something about health care, who actually want to know the numbers, who want to do right by their bodies and their loved one's health. It makes it very hard to advance the argument if you're not getting the numbers right.

I also think the whole idea, Michael, of just calling it a free system I think is a little bit nebulous to people who don't fully understand what you mean by that. Yes, you've got to raise taxes significantly. I mean France is drowning in taxes. They're running a $15.6 billion debt. I mean it's very hard to pay for this sort of thing. And to just call it free and say it's free, I think, makes it very -- it's murky, Michael, at best. And I think that's what I have difficulty with when you're trying to really advance a scenario here where we can get health care for everybody. KING: Good point. Michael?

MOORE: Well, he just used the line from my film where I said the French are drowning in taxes. That's my line.

Right?

GUPTA: Well, look --

MOORE: Isn't that --

GUPTA: Michael, I think you would have to agree.

MOORE: Don't you agree?

GUPTA: No. Let me -- you would have to agree that people would walk away from your film with the perception that health care is free in Canada.

MOORE: Yes.

GUPTA: I mean you're a filmmaker.

MOORE: It is free.

GUPTA: You know how to do this sort of thing.

MOORE: It is free.

GUPTA: You pay for it through taxes --

MOORE: It is free.

GUPTA: I mean, in France, there's a 13.5 percent --

MOORE: Yes. We pay for it --

GUPTA: -- payroll tax.

MOORE: We pay.

GUPTA: There's a 5 percent income tax. That's in addition to a --

MOORE: Hey, when will I get to say something here?

GUPTA: Go ahead.

KING: All right, Sanjay.

Go ahead, Michael.

MOORE: Man, oh, man.

KING: Go ahead.

MOORE: Yes -- GUPTA: We've got Michael Moore speechless. That's pretty hard to do here.

MOORE: Well, no, it's just I -- well, it's -- I'm not going -- I'm trying to say something here and he just went on with another diatribe about this.

You know, the -- first of all, these countries, you think the other 24 of the top 25 industrialized countries are doing this wrong and we're doing it right?

I mean they actually do get care for free and we don't call it taxes. But what we pay for in co-pays and deductibles -- or if you're having to pay for your own premium -- when you add all that up and then -- and the profit that has to go into the pocket of the private insurance companies -- when you add all that up, we're actually paying more than these other countries.

That's why it's $7,000 per person instead of, say, $3,000 in Canada per person, because we have a system built on profit.

And they won't allow profit to enter into the equation because they're mostly concerned about making sure every single one of their citizens is covered. And so you won't find many Canadians or French or British people willing to give up their national system for our system, even if they do have to pay a little more in taxes, because, in the end, because they're not paying the co-pays and the deductibles and all these other things, it's actually costing them less money in the long run.

GUPTA: Well, if I could respond really quickly.

KING: Sure.

GUPTA: Mike, I don't disagree with any of that. The point is, though, and I think you would have to concede this point, Michael, that you are trying to lead people to believe, again, people who are really concerned about this issue, that it is free in these other countries. And that is what I think is (INAUDIBLE) --

MOORE: It is free.

GUPTA: It's not, Michael.

I mean the taxes are high. I know -- I understand that you're equating taxes with -- with HMO premiums. I get it. I've studied this stuff, as have you.

But to just say to someone who doesn't have a sophisticated understanding of exactly how health care works that it's free is simply not true.

Why do we have --

MOORE: It is free because we --

GUPTA: Why do they have such a high debt in France?

Why are they paying so much more in taxes?

MOORE: The difference -- the difference is, is that in those countries, if you get sick, you never have to worry about whether or not you're going to be able to afford to pay for it. That's the difference. And when you've got 47 million people in this country with no health insurance, they don't go to the doctor because they can't afford it. And -- and, I mean, I just think -- let me ask you as a doctor.

I mean do you like, as a doctor, having to -- when you have a patient there and before you can perform a procedure or a treatment or a refer them to a specialist, that you've got to call the insurance company first and talk to a man that's sitting in a cubicle a thousand miles away in order to get permission when you've got the patient right there?

Do you think that's a good system?

GUPTA: No, no, it's not, Michael. And, obviously, that's -- it's a shameful system, especially when I'm dealing with some of my patients.

But, Michael, I mean on the one hand --

MOORE: Right.

GUPTA: -- you've criticized the --

MOORE: That's why I want to eliminate the middle man.

GUPTA: You criticize the government so soundly. But you're willing to hand over one of our most precious commodities, our health care in this country, to the government. I'm not saying I disagree with you. But I can't believe you're saying this all in the same sentence.

You so soundly criticize the way this government manages things, yet you're willing to hand over this precious commodity to them.

MOORE: No. I actually love our government. I think the government is great. It does a great job of administrating Social Security. Our parents and grandparents get their checks every single month on time and for the correct amount.

Our government used to do a lot of things really well. We put a man on the moon in eight years, after the president said we're going to put a man on the moon. We had FDR, who defeated the Nazis and then the Japanese and Mussolini in less time than it's taken us to secure the road from the airport to downtown Baghdad.

GUPTA: I hear you.

MOORE: I mean the government actually used to do things right. The problem is who we've put in power who holds office. They're the ones who sort of messed this up and we just need to have the right people there administrating it.

KING: Well --

GUPTA: Michael, one of the best examples of health care, at least some sort of universal health care, would be Medicare. I think you would agree with that.

MOORE: Yes --

GUPTA: It's going to go bankrupt by 2019. It's going to be $28 trillion in debt by 2075.

Look, I believe the very measure of a great society is in how we take care of those who cannot take care of themselves.

But would you say that this is going to be still a working system 20 years from now?

Is that what you --

KING: All right, let me get a break, guys.

GUPTA: Is this what you --

(CROSSTALK)

MOORE: Not if we --

KING: We have a few minutes left --

MOORE: Not if we keep -- not if we keep spending $100 billion a year on a war, no. We won't have money for our own people.

KING: All right.

That's --

MOORE: We have to reprioritize things.

KING: That's another topic.

We have a few minutes left. And I'll get back to Michael Moore --

MOORE: It's connected.

KING: -- and Dr. Sanjay Gupta. And maybe we'll do a lot more on this one night soon, as it deserves all of our attention.

Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We have a few moments remaining. Dr. Gupta, Michael Moore said that many American doctors are demoralized by the current U.S. Health care system, that a lot of them flat out hate it.

Do you agree?

GUPTA: Well, I think for some of the reasons Michael just talked about, with the fact that we have to sometimes go to -- to people outside the system, people who may not be familiar with the patient's care, to get approval for certain things. There's been a lack of autonomy. I'm a neurosurgeon. I sense that very profoundly.

And I think, yes, I mean there's a lot of problems with the system. The least -- I mean one that we certainly have to mention, obviously, the uninsured problem. I mean it breaks your heart to see --

KING: Yes.

GUPTA: -- to see how many people don't have basic health care insurance. And it needs fixing.

KING: Yes.

Michael, do you think maybe you overreacted to Sanjay's piece?

MOORE: No. I am sorry we've taken so much time trying to correct his facts here tonight instead of talking about the real issue. People can go to my Web site and you can see point by point where he was wrong on everything.

But I think the real discussion we should have, Larry -- and maybe we can do this again -- is to talk about what Sanjay just brought up in terms of the 47 million who don't have insurance. Eighteen thousand people die every year for no other reason other than the fact that they don't have insurance. Medical bills are now the number one cause of bankruptcy in this country.

And if I -- if I could, I would just like to say one thing about these wait times in Canada. They always talk about how you've got to wait longer in Canada, which is true for some things that are not emergencies.

But the reason why you have a little bit longer wait in Canada is because everybody is in line, because they cover everybody.

In our country, we've removed 47 million people from the line. And any time you remove 47 million people from a line, you're going to have less wait in line. Those of us who have insurance have a less wait time because 47 million of our citizens aren't there in front of us in line. That's the --

KING: Good point.

MOORE: That's wrong and it's immoral.

KING: Sanjay, good point?

GUPTA: I think it's worth bringing up the numbers. I think Michael is right. I think, you know, for a cardiac catheterization, for example, Michael, which is something you and I both might need one day in our lives, you wait six days if it's sort of an emergency in Canada, and up to 60 days for it to be elective.

I don't know what you think about those numbers. In the United States, on average -- and I understand the un-insurance problem. I get it. I hear what you're saying.

But it can take about a day for someone whose non-emergent and a few hours for someone who is emergent.

These are the facts. These are the numbers, Michael. I mean if you have a heart problem, where would you rather be?

If you were having chest pain right now and you needed a heart catheterization, would you want to be waiting six days, up to 60 days? Or do you want to be taken care of within hours or a day?

MOORE: If I were -- if I were in England, 71 percent of the people there get to see the doctor that day or the next day. In Australia, it's 66 percent. And in these -- all these countries, other than Canada, are better than us at this. And they spend less money on it than we do.

So, you know, I mean, I know we would like to feel like we're number one. And, you know, Larry, you asked me if there's anything I regret about yesterday with Wolf. And I -- I do feel bad about it asking him to apologize on behalf of all the media to the American people about the war.

I mean I've been wondering for, you know, three or four years when somebody from the media was just going to say, hey, we're sorry we didn't ask those questions. And I didn't mean to put that on Wolf, to be the lone representative of all that I think is wrong with our mainstream media right now. So, and they (INAUDIBLE) --

KING: And one thing we should clear up. You know, you're saying it well.

Dr. Gupta, we have less than a minute, and we should clear up -- have you ever had an effect by the fact of who the sponsor is on what you report?

GUPTA: No. I have no contact at all with the sponsor. They've never affected my judgment. We did the story, the "Sicko" fact check piece -- it was completely just -- just our own editorial pursuits on this.

MOORE: Except --

GUPTA: And --

MOORE: Except -- except, let me say this, the one expert that you had in the piece is a person from a think tank group who is a big Republican contributor. He's done business with Blue Cross, with Avantis, with these other groups.

I mean don't you have a right as a journalist or a responsibility, actually, to tell the public when you're using an expert, this person is a Republican, he's with a think tank --

GUPTA: Well --

MOORE: -- that's connected to (INAUDIBLE) --

KING: OK, we're --

(CROSSTALK)

KING: Sanjay, we have 20 seconds.

MOORE: He's with a think tank --

GUPTA: You know, his only affiliation --

KING: Hold it, Michael.

GUPTA: His only affiliation is with Vanderbilt University. We checked it, Michael. We checked his conflict of interest. We do ask those questions.

MOORE: I'll --

GUPTA: Whether or not we disclose it to you on the (INAUDIBLE) --

MOORE: I'll put that all up on the site, too.

(CROSSTALK)

KING: I'll tell you what, guys --

GUPTA: Please do.

KING: We're going to do this again. And we're going to have a major discussion on health care with both of you.

And thank you both --

MOORE: All right. Good.

KING: -- very much.

GUPTA: Hey, Michael --

MOORE: I hope so.

Thanks.

GUPTA: thanks for raising the issue, Michael.

I hope people vote their conscience at the ballot box (INAUDIBLE).

KING: Michael Moore and Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

MOORE: Thank you.

KING: One quick reminder --

MOORE: Thank you for (INAUDIBLE).

[KNOWTHIS]

Larry King is an honorary, senile bastard.

www.bradblog.com/?p=4800#more-4800

[Thetaloops]

Go! Michael Go! He was fuming over their comments and they backed off. Good for him.

TL

Michael Moore Calls Truce With CNN
Jul 16, 4:12 PM EST
The Associated Press

NEW YORK -- "Sicko" filmmaker Michael Moore called a truce Monday in his weeklong fight with CNN that flared when the network accused him of fudging facts in his popular documentary about the health-care system.

Moore had promised the network over the weekend that "I'm about to become your worst nightmare," leading CNN to post on its Web site a remarkably lengthy response to his accusations.

He noted in an interview Monday that CNN had admitted to two mistakes in reporting on "Sicko" and that he's willing to move on.

"I trust the intelligence of the American people," Moore told The Associated Press. "I don't think there's a whole lot more to do with this other than I and others are going to be a lot more skeptical with what I see on CNN."

CNN, in its statement, noted that it has given Moore multiple opportunities to discuss his concerns about the report on the air.

"It's ironic that someone who has made a career out of holding powerful interests accountable is so sensitive to having his own work held up to the light by impartial journalists, as we did in our examination of `Sicko,'" CNN said.

Shortly before Moore appeared for an interview with CNN's Wolf Blitzer last week, the network ran a report by Dr. Sanjay Gupta that had done some fact-checking on Moore's movie. Gupta's report made Moore furious, leading to a contentious segment with Blitzer and a debate with Gupta on "Larry King Live" later in the week.

Gupta addressed several statistics in "Sicko" before concluding: "No matter how much Moore fudged the facts — and he did fudge some facts — there is one thing everyone can agree on: the (health care) system here should be far better."

In Gupta's report, CNN had said that Moore had reported that Cuba spends $25 per person for health care.

In fact, the movie estimates Cuba's spending at $251 per person. CNN blamed a transcription error for its mistake and apologized for it on and off the air.

The network accuses Moore of "cherry-picking" numbers from different academic studies to make his arguments stronger. CNN said it believes in essentially comparing apples with apples. Moore said he tried to use the most recent data available.

Moore was also angry that Gupta interviewed Paul Keckley, who works for the Deloitte Center for Health Solutions, as a critic of "Sicko." Moore said Deloitte's chairman is Tommy Thompson, President Bush's former health and human services secretary, and that Keckley had made political contributions to Republican candidates and organizations.

The second mistake came not in Gupta's original report — where Keckley was correctly identified as representing Deloitte — but in an on-air debate where Gupta claimed Keckley was working for Vanderbilt University.

"His only affiliation is with Vanderbilt University," Gupta said. "We checked it, Michael. We checked his conflict of interest. We do ask those questions."

While CNN noted Moore was correct in pointing out Keckley had left Vanderbilt last year, it said Keckley's comments were factual and descriptive. Deloitte says it does not have a political agenda.

In other instances, CNN said Moore appeared to be creating a fight where none really existed. The network said it was comfortable letting viewers judge for themselves.

Moore said he believed it was important for him to let people know his side. "In the report they say that I fudged the facts," he said, "and they didn't find a single fact that I fudged."

[KNOWTHIS]

Michael Moore on Hardball.

Video:
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/